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Question from Illelage

June 7, 2010

Question
hope i am posting in the right place the site is confusing with q/a evrywhere.

if jews dont evangelize why are you here. If it were a messianic jewish doing this with “conservative judiasm exposed” you may consider is proselytazation. right?

picture itin your mind

“conservative judiasm exposed” with christian answers!!!

i know I would consider it proselytazation since I am jewish!!!

my question is “why is THIS not considered evangelizing?” if it would have been vise versa.?

This blog is not aimed at convincing any Christians to become Jewish. This blog is aimed at
1) highlighting some of the dishonest methods utilised by missionaries
2) innoculating uneducated and vulnerable unaffiliated Jews against the tactics utilised by missionaries
3) hopefully waking up some of the unfortunate Jewish souls that have been tricked by missionaries into converting to look at the way they were converted and to then hopefully question whether they have done the right thing- if they have actually looked at the Jewish answers to the questions raised rather than just the answers given to them by the missionaries. if I can get just one Jewish soul to repent, leave “messianic judaism” and return to Judaism- then no matter how many hours I spend here, that time will have been well spent!

I have no intention of converting Christians- I am happy to state that Judaism considers anyone, regardless of their religion, that follows the seven laws of Bnei Noach to be righteous. This is not a page where people will find conversion information, nor will they find it advocating conversion, nor will you find links to sites to convert. it will advocate that people that are halachicly Jewish and have converted to another religion should do teshuvah and return to Jduaism, but that is all

62 Comments
  1. Uzuxope permalink

    Huh? Listen, go to Israel. Hear the sirenes go off. Listen to the bombs explode. See the poor citizens lying in the streets injured, dying or dead.

    Then go to a White Supremist site, that would do away with anyone not of “scandanavian” heritage.

    You might also like to read your own words, some of which are there for all to see.

    After that, come back here and tell us what hate is.

    This is a laugh.

    • Been to Israel, heard the sirens. I’ve waited anxiously to hear if the family is ok as bombs fell near wher they lived. I’ve waited news for family on active duty as they defended Israel as part of the IDF. I’m well aware of the white supremacist and their neo-Nazi ideology; and that does not mean that I have to turn ablond eye to the antics of missionaries seeking to destroy the souls of Jews

  2. HowdyDuty permalink

    I think you are missing the point above me. There are already many finely tuned sites about Messianics by Jewish writers and press agents. This is small potatoes.

    First, I see nothing shocking here, nothing controversal. There are no covert operations that you tapped into.

    Why not make a donation to Israeli ambulances, hospitals, counceling for those with PTS? Volunteer in some way that makes a tangible difference.

    Keep in mind, Yahoo Answers is an out-in-the-open site. Whatever your posting was seen by thousands already.

    Write a book, produce a film, this will not make a difference in anyone’s life.

    Just the opinion of one with a PhD.

    • Yes here are other sites, and now there is this one as well. The obvious fact is that this site is making a difference- just look at the attention it is gettng, including it being blogged about, and discussed by the “messianic jews”! Yes, there are many wonderful sites, and I fully support them- feel free to pass along the urls of any that I have missed in my links in the sidebar- but this site is filling a niche that none of the others cover- and it appears to be a niche that the “messianic jews” would rather not see filled!

      As for donating to chupat cholim- I already do that- I also donate to the Chevra Kadisha, the Israel United Appeal and various other charities. I also volunteer- for a couple of charities and I’m the acting Rabbi for a small community in Johannesburg (nope, I don’t have smicha but they want me to do the job). I do plenty- and I will still do this as well!

  3. HowdyDuty permalink

    By the way, did you know another site has a story about you with your picture?

    link to story removed by moderator

    • I am aware of the story on the “messianic” blog. Its been wonderful in sending traffic to this blog. PLease note- I will not accept a link to that site since it has seen fit to publish details of me without my permission. As such, feel no need to rpovide a link to their site.

  4. Mr. Dubow permalink

    How many Messianic Jews are on Yahoo that you know of? Do you intend on broadening your horizons if this webcite is deemed a failure?

    • You know what the fun part of this site is? It cannot be a failure! I was expecting it to generate very little traffic, it was merely going to be a repository for the screenshots for when I needed to refer to them. So, to me, it is already a success!

      How many “messianic jews” are actually on Yahoo! Answers? Who knows the actual number. Their is so much abuse of multiple accounts, such frequent name and detail changes, that its impossible to track how many of them there are. It doesn’t really matter though, as long as there are any there, I will remain active. As for broadening its horizons- to what? Due to the laws of lashon hara, there is a limited scope you can operate a blog such as this in. In terms of a blog about Judaism, I already have that- I just keep the two seperate.

  5. Private permalink

    How has the Orthodox community on the internet treated you, especially now that ‘the other Website’ went public with your full story?

    Are they afraid it will happen to them too?

    • My contacts are all supportive. No idea how many are even aware of this website- in time, hopefully knowledge of it will grow; I expect that they will be supportive as everyone would like o see the end of deceptive missionary practices and would love for “messianic jews” to leave the Jewish community alone! As for the story scaring them off- come on, every counter missionary has had similar antics aimed at them; its hardly like anyone opposing missionaries is a stranger to that kind of tactic!

  6. Bebe` permalink

    B’kavod Ha’Rav, Where do we draw the line between the need to ask Da’as Torah and making a choice for Yeshua ourself? —

    • The bottom line is simple- choosing Yeshua means you are not Jewish regardless of your level of da’as Torah. In fact, when choosing yeshua, the higher the level of da’as Torah, the greater the punishment in the world to come. If you want to be Christian, be Christian- don’t mix it with Judaism as that cannot benefit you but just raise the level of culpability for your sin!

  7. Bebe` permalink

    Part 2

    L’kovud harav. We have had same serious shaylos lately and were directed to certain Gedolim who we respected but they did not know us.

    It seems they answered us correctly, even though initially we had our doubts, we listen to daas Torah.

    Our great disappointment though and “slap” in the face was the perception that they just didn’t care.

    They did not come across as having any compassion for our situation. I would venture to say that it was somewhat of a chilul Hashem even though they were right – their approach stunk. Is this just a matter of yeridas hadoros?

    • Orthodox Gedolim do not have compassion for “messianic jews”. Its simple- at best the person could be deemed a “captive child”, totally ignorant and not responsible for their action. At worst, they would be an apikoros, wilfully disregarding the Torah to follow another religion. In either case the person is outside of the community. So, when they give an answer, it will be a Jewish one- they will hope that if a person has found themselves in another religion, they will repent and return to Judaism- but they not show understanding and alter there answers in any way t o make it more palatable to those who have abandoned Judaism! Nope, it is not a case of yeridas hadoros- unless you want to term their compassion in answering your shayla at all as a descent! The Rishonim and previous generations would have placed you in a complete cherem and would not have even spokem to you unless you had at first come to them to repent before a Beis Din!

      If the reason was for some other reason, then you need to elaborate further.

  8. Jules permalink

    Where could I meet a messianic, there are none in Idaho.

    • You do realise that this is not a forum to meet “messianic jews”, right? Sorry, but I only direct people away from messianics, not towards them

  9. Sophie permalink

    Rabbi, I would like to thank you for your time. I am a Gioress living a beautiful jewish life. My husband is in Kollel and we are a “typical” yeshivish couple. We love it! My entire family convertered when i was younger.

    I feel like my whole family fell apart since we converted. My parents divorced & my siblings are all struggling badly with life and the Jewish world and the problems they see.

    2 are religious 1 has gone back. Why does HaShem have gerim? Many people look down on them and dont want to marry them.

    We as gerim always felt different and didnt fit in. We did this all for Hashem! What is there status? (I thought you would know since the subject is similar: ) “Once they convert are they always Jewish? I wanna be positive about the siuation but its been difficult. V’ahavta es HaGer?!”?

  10. Curt permalink

    I’m having a hard time with the halacha that one must sleep only on one’s side. I am much more comfortable sleeping on my stomache, and sometimes my back, always have.

    A Jehovahs Witness told me that I can be a Jewish Jehovahs witness and that then I wouldn’t have to follow halacha.

    But now I am in a delima. How can I all of a sudden switch to sleeping on my side? And what is the reason for this halacha? And even if I try to go to sleep on my side, which I have, and find it difficult (I have backaches), how can I choose to do so when I am asleep? Also, I just recently found out that one must go to sleep on one’s left side and wake up on the right (or vice versa – I forgot which). That makes things even more difficult.

    I know if I became a Jehovah’s witness I wouldn’t have to do this. (How would I know which side I’d wake up on anyway?).
    I also am led to believe I may be healed if I become a Jehovah’s witness.

    Does this make sense to you. The halacha is difficult and I feel freedom with Jesus may be the only way. I know “his yoke is easy and burden light” (New Testament)

    Please comment. I will share my answer with all.

  11. Murray Klein permalink

    You are the man I must consult because of your recent situation.

    The rabbi spoke about the issue of using someone elses wireless internet.

    The rabbi did not speak about the possible problem of stealing from the Internet Service Provider. (which is akin to the theft of your photo and personal information) What would be the Halacha regarding that? Thanks.

    • Theft is theft. It does not matter what is stolen, any form of theft is forbidden. Stealing the usage of someone else’s wireless internet is the same as stealing anything else form the person; utilising the bandwidth provided by an ISP illegally is the same as stealing anything else from a company providing resources for hire to other people.

      However, it is hardly analogous to my situation- in my case the blog in question is making use of a photo I have place dint he public domain by using it as an avatar on yahoo! Answers. They have placed text from my blog on their site- but they have provided a link back to the source. This makes their usage legal as it falls under the provisions of information placed in the public domain and utilised under the “fair use” of copyrighted material. Their motivations behind their action are disgusting, and the mail sent to me by some of their readers telling me how much trouble I am in because of what they have done is disgusting- but the blog has not committed any illegal action as yet. of course, the mails, link to the blog and other threatening emails sent to me (with full headers) are all stored in a single folder in multiple locations and held with some friends- so if anything does happen to me the police will know where to start their investigations.

  12. MrsIraLevine permalink

    Why is so much emphasis put on Yeshua here and why is so much emphasis put Messianic Jews? I’ll tell you.

    Mastering halacha and hashkafa in English and putting it into practice requires very hard work, that is what is important to some people.However, my point is that if our goal in life is to get close to G-d, and one gets close to G-d through Yeshua, and putting all that knowledge into practice, it seens more important!

    To me, it seems like all the time and energy put towards building Hebrew and Gemara skills and learning non-practical topics should be pushed off until one has first come to the Jewish Messiah. —Anonymous, New York

    • A Jew doe snot get close to G-d through following a figure from another religion. In fact, a Jew that follows Jesus, regardless of what name you want to call him, gets cut off completely and eternally from G-d. They are cut off in this world from G-d and the Jewish people, and they are cut off in the world to come from G-d and the Jewish people. So, any Jew pursuing Jesus under any name is not drawing closer to G-d, but is oursuing an eternal seperation from G-d and destroying their soul and their future.

  13. Philomena permalink

    Why do some people not say Jesus’s name? I’ve heard big Rabbis say it, but lay people often call him by other nicknames. Why is it such an issue?

    • Its simple- the Torah forbids us from mentioning the names of the deities of other religions in case someone misunderstands and thinks we are worshipping the entity being mentioned. As such, the common practice is to not use the names of foreign deities. However, when it is a situation where intent cannot be mistaken and positive can be gained, then one can use the name. For example- a Rabbi addressing a group and reaching out to those who have converted. Unnecessary enmity and antagonism can be created, and make it harder to reach those addressed, if the name is not used- therefore, in the interests of being able to address such peopel in the hopes of getting them to return to Judaism, one would use the name of whatever deity it is they have come to worship.

  14. Icedcream permalink

    How do you explain that not Messianic Jew posted negatively about you here? You’re the one who’s slinging mud. They’re quiet. Did you notice that?

    • Evidently you have not read all the comments here! Nor have you seen the ones I have trashed. Its simple- I block and trash the comments which are too crude or are one and two word expletives. You also have not read the comments directed against me and other Jews on Yahoo! Answers. So the question is- what do you think of the insults in the screenshots? Do yo not consider that mudslinging of the lowest form? do you not consider those insults?

  15. Alana permalink

    I live on a frum settlement. A Baale Teshuvah family recently brought two sons (age 9 and 14) to live with them.

    The purpose is as I understand, is NOT to convert them, but to teach them to become Bnei Noach. The boys do not have any semblance of Jewish behavior, dress etc…, or show any respect for the frum nature of the settlement(for example, they ride skateboards and walk dogs by the entrance to the shul on Shabbat).

    Talking to the family who brought them to the settlement falls on deaf ears, and causes anger on their part. The Mara D’Atra has expressed his halachic opinion that the children must leave, but the settlement is in a legal bind, and cannot force the family to send these boys away. Now the family we find are messianic. What do we parents, who are concerned about the effect these boys could have on our children do?

    How vociferous should we be in our complaint? How do we avoid Lashon Hara about the family who brought these Messianic boys here? Thanks very much to the man in the picture on Messianics Exposed – Exposed.

  16. Tamar permalink

    I have had throughout my life recurring dreams about my teeth falling out of my mouth. Each dream is different, sometimes it is one tooth, sometimes many, and sometimes even the red tissues of my gums come out with the teeth that I catch in my hand. I am terribly disturbed by these dreams, crying terribly with my chest heaving from crying in my dream. I get them about once or twice a year maybe, although sometimes a few years go by without these dreams thank G-d! These dreams really disturb me. I know there was some type of mystical reason for the falling out of teeth in dreams. Some say it is a symbol about losing one’s finances/wealth, etc. Then others say no, this is a good dream. I can’t believe it is a good dream the way I am terrified and crying.

    What is the explanation of teeth falling out of one’s mouth in dreams?

    I know you study Kabbalah and feel you could be of help. Tamar, Jerusalem

  17. Glorid permalink

    Dear Blog Man, I am an orthodox Jew but do not think the Rebbe is moshiach ben dovid.

    But, I have a question, is it possible that the Rebbe could be moshiach ben Yosef?

    I heard that moshiach ben yosef will outreach to non jews, teach the penimious of Torah, and be killed in the war of gog and magog.

    Now, although the Rebbe died and was not killed, could it be that the war of gog and magog was a spiritual war and he was killed by the Sitra Achra?

    I heard that moshaich ben yosef comes before moshiach ben dovid and prepares the world for moshiach ben dovid. Thank you.

  18. Mamabear permalink

    I have heard of a legend that says that if two children stand in Jerusalem and speak the true name of God out loud in unison, the Moshiach will come.

    Is there any truth to this? Do we know God’s true name? What do we know of the Moschiach?

  19. Ginger permalink

    I am Jewish. If I marry my Messianic boyfriend, would I be able to keep the laws of Family Purity with him?

    Sorry for the question, when I know I shouldn’t marry a Messianic, but I don’t understand why religion should come in the way of love.

  20. Clover permalink

    link to the blog and other threatening emails sent to me (with full headers) are all stored in a single folder in multiple locations and held with some friends- so if anything does happen to me the police will know where to start their investigations.

    Kavod Ha Rav. You mention a most upsetting scenario to me “emails sent to me (with full headers) are all stored in a single folder in multiple locations and held with some friends- so if anything does happen to me the police will know where to start their investigations”.

    Have you done the segula? No effort goes into segulos. I hope I am making sense. Would you be safer?

    IMPORTANT: Do you really think these horrible people are out to kill you? Consider calling the police now. This is so very upsetting. I do not want you to die a martyr’s death.

    • Do I think they are out to kill me? The vast majority- nope, but every group has extremists. Considering the multiple efforts made, both here and on Yahoo! Answers to get my contact details or to even have me meet them, I have no doubt they would try to disrupt my life given the opportunity. Not necessarily violently, but I have no doubt that they would harass me and my family given the opportunity. After all- I am well aware that the insulting and rude posts are coming in via web proxies- that, coupled with the previous multiple ID attempts from a single IP which attempted to gain my personal and financial details, shows me that there is at least one individual willing to break the law with misrepresentation and phishing attempts, to get my details! And when someone is willing to go to such lengths, you do not expect it is to just share a cup of coffee! Whether or not it would ever become violent I don’t know- but I take the precautions nonetheless.

  21. Earl permalink

    Shalom,

    Is it a mitzvah chiyuvis or a mitzvah kiyumis to teach a Messianic sheva mitzvot bnai noach and the speficis to it?

    I have heard that the Lubavitch Rebbe, ztl, once said that the Rambam said it is a mitzvah to teach non jews the sheva mitzvot bnai noach but others say the Rambam meant it is only a mitzvah to teach them only “after” the moshiach has revealed himself? I am not sure if this would apply o a Messianic in my family. Can you please answer? Thanks.

    • Most authorities hold that it is a mitzvah to teach the Sheva mitzvot Beni Noach to non-Jews. However, ALL authorities agree that it is forbidden to teach any Torah to someone that would masquerade as Jew for financial or political gain, would masquerade as a Jew to attack Jews either spiritually or physically, or would deliberately alter what is taught to them to justify idolatrous beliefs.

      Taking this into account, one needs to be careful when teaching anything to “messianic jews” since they have demonstrated that
      1) they twist Jewish beliefs to justify idolatry
      2) they masquerade as Jews to try and convert Jews

      If you have “messianic jewish”relatives, rather let them learn their religion at their church- do not involve yourself with their religious beliefs unless they are seeking to learn about real Judaism as part of their Teshuvah in leaving the movement

  22. Lynda permalink

    I think suggesting that another religious group threatened you to the point that you have ” “incriminating papers” all stored in a single folder in multiple locations and held with some friends- so if anything does happen to me the police will know where to start their investigations.” is classless.

    The place to share this w/police not on a public board.

    Makes one wonder if you are trying to stack the cards unfavorably.

    • Do get the facts straight- I said INDIVIDUALS within a religious movement- not the whole religious movement or even the majority of the people within it. Sadly, all religions have fanatics speakng out about the actions of fanatics tends to make you a target of them! So, if necessary it gets shared with police. You think taking precautions and letting people know they have been taken is “classless”- then you evidently live in a dream world or have never been the target of hate mails. Live on peacefully in your ignorance- for thos eof us in the real world, we will do what is necessary to protect ourselves

  23. Herb permalink

    On one hand, I’ve always heard that it’s improper and even forbidden to knowledgeably visit or talk to a Messianic. On the other hand, I just watched a video of Rabbi Boteach discussing matters with a Dr. Brown. Are there different (accepted) opinions in this matter and what is the reason some hold even knowingly being in the presence of a Messianic is forbidden?

    • It all depends on why one is engaged with them- when it is to argue and refute their arguments, one is allowed to do so if it has the possibility of sacing Jewish souls from destruction at the hands of the missionaries. Is one forbidden from just being in their presence? No, unless it could be construed that you are obne of them or approve of their actions. Obviously in the modern era it is impossible to ensure you are not in the presence of a apikoros- who knows every person in a shopping mall, store etc to know if one is in the presence of an apikoros? Is it good practice to avoid being in their presence? Of course- one should not associate or spend time with an apikoros or anyone that is engaged with trying to destroy Jewish souls.

  24. Hebrews permalink

    Within our community is an academic who is highly critical of religions including Yeshua believers. So strong are his views it makes some of the Jewish students very uncomfortable with his views. What are the Shmiras Haloshen rules about what would be the “kosher” way to go about criticizing Yeshua believers?

    He is getting older and I think is somewhat vulnerable and so I feel that if I presented him with a true Torah answer about those who worship false g-ds, he might do less public slandering of Messainics. Many thanks.

    • Actually, he is 100% correct. Rambam in hilchos Lashon HaRa specifically lists refuting missionaries and Jewish apostates as times when the laws of Lashon HaRa do NOT apply. similarly, the Chofetz Chaim lists the refuting of missionaries and apikorsim as one of the times it is permitted to speak Lashon Hara. The Talmud in masechta Sanhedrin states that the only time a warning does not need to be given and the witnesses can even be hidden is with the meizid- the one enticing Jews away from Judaism and towards other religions. Listen to the academic- he is correct, accurate and 100% justified in his statements and the manner in which he talks about those who would try to destroy Judaism by turning it into just another Christian sect!

  25. Ira permalink

    My brother is a believer in the Christian messiah and still calls himself a Jew. In some sense he is keeping kosher in his house, goes to Shul on Shabbos and supposedly nobody in his community knows about his this.

    Even though we knew about this, our married children don’t and we don’t want them to find out. They consider him a nice uncle that is Jewish too.

    In general, we tried to mentally block this situation and keep it kind of in the closet and keep the relationship.

    The situation long off but I need to know now. When Pesach comes and he wants to come to us for Yom Tov and our children and their families will come to us too.

    Our problem is that we feel that his being with us may affect the Kedushas ha Yom Tov but at the same time, we feel obligated to invite him to the Sedorim.

    Our question is if it is halachically proper to have him by our Seder. Thank you.

  26. Stanley permalink

    I know it is early in the morning and I apologize for disturbing you if you are just waking up. Sunday is coming and I must know what to do before then.

    Is it ever permissible to attend a Christian Jew temple? My fiancé and I are both ba’alei teshuvah and her grandparents insist that we attend a Friday night service at their Christian Jew temple.

    Assuming that no melachos are violated and there is no active participation in the service by us is it permissible for us to stand in the sanctuary for the sake of shalom bayis?

    Her grandparents would be highly offended if we did not attend, and I want to not start off new family relationships on the wrong foot. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

  27. Syl permalink

    I just came home from buying bagels, I live in Forest Hills nY. There is a corkboard there with a flyer to your most encouraging site. I read all the questions here and have a critique and question-

    I see you speak negatively about Messianic Jews. Some live in my building.

    To exempt yourself from the issur of lashon hara, you seem to imply they are deceivers and manipulators and many Jews know this well. I take the opinion you believe some officially rasha, so it’s a “mitzva” to do what you are doing.

    But I would like to know, just because you declared a person as a rasha, is that a heter to speak unlimited bad things about them- especially if other rabbonim don’t think of them as a rasha and if I anyway have nothing to do with that person?

  28. Yehudi permalink

    Does Judaism allow us to put our sick pet to sleep? Does Jewish Law allow cremation of dead pets? Are their Jewish prayers we can recite at our pet’s burial? What does the Talmud say about owning pets? Why don’t orthodox Jews have dogs? What is a bark mitzvah?

  29. Jose permalink

    B’Kavod Ha’Rav One who has constant machshovas Ra’os, how can he get rid of them?

    Have you ever heard this before? I feel so alone.

    What does halakha say about machshovas Ra’os?

    Am I being punished for something?

  30. Sammie permalink

    I am sorry you are having such difficult with this site.

    My question regards Messianics so this shouldn’t be a problem for anyone. I am honest and want to learn.

    Which branch of Judaism, Ultra Orthodox, Orthodox, Conservative or Reform gets the most training about messianics, I know you can not teach or instruct something you do not know about. so, what training did you have to quaify yourself to deal with Messianic Concerns.

    Is there a course in the University or have you just picked up information along life-s path.?

    • No particular movement provides training in arguing with missionaries. The majority of the counter-missionary organisations are Orthodox, simply because it is more common in the Orthodox community for people to study and know the Tanakh in Hebrew. Of course, there are educated people in the other forms of Judaism that do counter-missionary work, it has just been my experience that most are Orthodox.

      As for me, I got started because a missionary would not leave me alone. Actually, not only do I owe my knowledge of missionaries and their arguments to him, but studying enough to learn to refute him was one of the major drivers to me becoming religious! At first, I knew there was something wrong with his arguments but could not really counter them- after 6 months in the same class at him, having to deal with his obnoxious virtually everyday, I knew a lot not just about how to refute him- but about my own religion and how I should be observing it properly!

  31. Max permalink

    Are you Jewish? I saw your picture on that other site and did not see a Yalmuke.

    • Yes I’m Jewish, and yes I’m wearing a a yarmulke in the picture. It was night, the light makes it hard to see a black yarmulke. Acually, that was at a family Bar Mitzvah where I had taught the Bar Mitzvah boy the leining for his parshah

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