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Comment: The responsibility to counter missionaries

June 21, 2010

One of the questions I am being asked is the following: “Why do you bother with this? Do you feel threatened by these missionaries? Do they offer any threat to your personal beliefs or to those close to you?”

Am I threatened by these people? No- to me the falsity of their message, the blatant misrepresentation and deceit they peddle obvious. So why bother? Why have I started this website, aroused such anger (and support) against myself? The answer is simple; not everyone is educated, not everyone is able to recognise the truth from the lies, and thus it falls to those who do know better to educate and protect those who do not.

Why me? The question is- if you are Jewish and are not, why are you not involved? There is the famous Talmudic dictum found in masechta Shavuot “Kol Yisrael arazim zeh la eh” “all of Israel is responsible one for another”. It is the responsibility of each and every Jew to care about the welfare of his fellow Jews. In some instances this is obvious- charity to assist those in need, protection when they are threatened- and in the case of missionaries: information to prevent the vulnerable and ill informed from falling for their tricks and into their clutches.

There is no excuse for not acting when one can – G-d did not accept Kayin’s plea “Am I my brother’s keeper?” Of course G-d knew what had happened, of course he knew exactly where Hevel was- but he wanted to see if Kayin understood the fundamental issue of the fact that human being’s are part of a community, that we are not merely unconnected animals, we are not unrelated and isolated but interconnected and part of a greater whole. G-d wanted to see if Kayin had this understanding- because if he did, then the magnitude of his action, the effect of his action on the greater community could be conveyed to him- but Kayin did not; he excused himself, he isolated himself from the community, from his responsibility. The answer to Kayin’s query of “Am I my brother’s keeper?” is “Yes, you are, we are. All of us are interconnected and thus bear a responsibility to one another.”

The movie Schindler’s list made the following quotation from the Talmud masechta Sanhedrin famous: “For this reason man was created alone, to teach you that whoever destroys a single soul, he is guilty as though he had destroyed a complete world; and whoever preserves a single soul, it is as though he had preserved a whole world.” Here, it states explicitly the saving of a “nefesh”- a soul, saves an entire world. There can be no higher action than working to save a soul from destruction. There is the principal of Pikuach Nefesh- where to save a life, a soul (note the usage of the term NEFESH here as well!), virtually anything is allowed with the exception of three things: 1) Idolatry, 2) Murder, 3) Sexual immorality (specifically restricted to incest, adultery, sodomy, bestiality). On top of all this the Torah explicitly states how we deal with the meizid, the one who entices Jews to other religions. It is the only time that a death penalty is applied to a person who is not warned beforehand! (For a full treatment of this topic and how it applies in the moder era see my other post here) In fact, the necessary witnesses can even be hidden and the meizid brought to the place where they can see him and he cannot see them in order that he repeat his enticement to the person, and thus incriminate himself!

Why mention the above? Simple- what is the ultimate destruction of the nefesh (soul)? What causes the Jewish soul to loose its place in the world to come, to be cut off from G-d and the Jewish people? Conversion- taking on the trappings of another religion, abandoning Judaism in favour of another religion regardless of how it is dolled up to seem compatible to Judaism! Thus, as we are all responsible for our fellow Jews, it becomes our responsibility to prevent this spiritual damage, this spiritual destruction of our fellow Jews. We cannot cry out that just because we ourselves are not threatened that we can ignore it. We cannot pretend that the missionaries do not exist, that they are not out there seeking to destroy Jewish souls by enticing them into other religions. We must do what is required of us and to work to keep our fellow Jews safe and Jewish!

From → Comment

39 Comments
  1. You know, I once heard that a man by the name of Paul, a student of R. Gamliel, once had one of the greatest burrs against Messianic Jews…

    • The identification of Paul with being a student of R’ Gamliel is tenuous at best. Heh, and even if he was the student discussed in the Talmud- it is a very negative portrayal and does not speak well of him at all! Of course, if you want to claim rejects and poor students as the originators f your religion, who am I to stop you? LOL

      • That assumes he’s the student discussed in the Talmud.

      • If he isn’t, then there is zero support for the assertion that he had anything to do with R’ Gamliel! So take your pick- a bad student who was disrespectful and was forced to leave studying with R’ Gamliel- or zero proof that he ever had anything to do with R’ Ganmliel.

  2. There is his own admission. But I suppose that doesn’t count. Someone could have shouted at him for being a liar, but that isn’t recorded. So then, all we have is his own admission, and his statements bearing his own witness that he is a pharisee who is zealous for the Torah.

    • …as well as his teaching being a witness of the same fact.

      • Ah, his teachings- like going to the Jews as a Jew and to the non-Jews as a non-Jew… Anything to get the job done huh? Kinda like the “messianic jews” today- ethics and morality are optional extras discarded when in the quest to convert Jews!

    • An admitted liar who stated he would go to Jews as a Jew and to non-Jews as a non-Jew. Considering his own admission as to his view that honesty is optional, we can discount anything he said! And quite frankly, the Christian scriptures are so full of errors about Judaism and Jewish practices, that no Jew takes anything in them with anything but a very large pinch of salt!

      • Messianic theology deleted by moderator. This is off topic and has nothing to do with the content or the purpose of this blog. Debate over the Christian theology espoused by “messianic jews” vs Judaism is not going to take place here. Find yourself another place to try and reach real Jews on- it is not going to be here

  3. Dan Benzvi permalink

    Albert Einstein once said: ” Everyone has a right to his opinion, but no one has a right to be wrong with the facts.”

    You, my friend are guilty of doing just this.

    Polemics will always fall apart if they have no Scriptural basis. Please provide Scriptures where Paul went to non-Jews pretending to be a non-Jew? The fact that you do not understand Scriptures does not a fact make.

    • Really- I would have expected a Christian to have better knowledge of Christian scriptures than a Jew! LOL
      Corinthians Chapter 9:
      20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

      Perhaps you better go and learn your own scriptures better before trying to convert Jews to your religion!

      • Dan Benzvi permalink

        You LOL Too much…..

        One more time, where is a scxriptures that Paul went to non-Jews as a non-Jew?

        85% of Jews are “WITHOUT LAW”, don;t you think so? Does it make them non-Jews?

        You are reading your agenda into Scriptures, but then, what else is new with you anti-missionaries?

        Stop LOLing so much and spend more time in Scriptures…..

      • You know- here I was thinking that “messianic jews” only lied about Jewish beliefs in their attempts to convert Jews- who knew that they were as willing to lie about Christian scriptures? So, you claiming that good old Paul never went to non-Jews as a non-Jew huh? so, exactly who is being referred to in Corinthians 9:22 when it states: I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

        Of course, I shudder to think what “I do all things” include- there were some very didgy things going on back then in the name of religion..

        And you know what, I will continue laughing while watching you distort Christian scriptures the way you do with Jewish texts!

  4. Moderator: Tis comment has been deleted. Distortions and lies about the Torah will not appear here. Keep your Christian theology and distortions of the Torah to Christian sites

  5. Dan Benzvi permalink

    Why do you always try to kill the messenger when you cannot deal with the message? I asked you a question, why can’t you answer it? Are you not capable to communicate with people on a scholarly level?

    One more time: In light of the fact that 85% of the Jewish people are secular and are WITHOUT LAW, does it make them non-Jews? If you cannot answer that is ok., but then all you do is exposing yourself as a novice, and you are far from exposing any Messianics as your moniker suggest…..

    • Nope- they were secular WITH the Law, just not obeying it. They are referred to as Am ha’aretz in the Jewish writings of the period- a term implying someone who has not been educated properly and thus cannot be expected to keep the laws properly- though they still have them! Christian scriptures imply that ALL Jews are under the law- and need Jesus for salvation since the law is insufficient. Thus it is clearly seen that you are deliberately misrepresenting your own scriptures in an attempt to justify Paul’s deceit and misrepresentation as he clearly states himself in v23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

      So, thank you for showing how “messianic jews” are prepared to not just misrepresent Jewish scriptures to try and convert Jews, but Christian ones as well!

  6. Dan Benzvi permalink

    Now, for some interpretation:

    9:20: don’t you think that Paul’s claim to “become as a Jew” would have sounded very strange to those who knew him, since he was a Jew by birth and maintained a very open and obvious connection to his Jewish community?

    • Nope- it is not clear he was a Jew by birth- or if he was there is no clear connection to him being attached to the community. On the contrary, it appears that he was a citizen of Rome implying that at best his family was nominally Jewish and were affiliated to the ruling authorities that were hostile to Jews! His claim to be a pharisee is highly suspect and self serving in light of his statement that he was prepared to do “all things” to spread the gospels!

      Sorry, but Paul is the hardly the poster boy you want to hold him up as when trying to convert Jews to your flavour of Christianity!

      • Dan Benzvi permalink

        You can only say this if you distort the New Testament writing, a thing you banned Israel for, did you not? You insert your biases and manipulate NT Scriptures,at the same time you ban Israel for doing the same. Hardly a scholarly stance I would say…..

      • I have banned no one- I have simply not allowed comments attacking real Judaism to be posted by a missionary. Its simple really- I will not allow Judaism to be attacked through misrepresentation and deliberate distortion of the Torah!

        As for my comments about Paul- I do nothing but quote the exact text from the Christian scriptures. if you have an issue with the way that text is viewed by a Jew- I’m not surprised! Since you are a Christian, you undoubtedly view it differently to the way Jews do. That is why you are a Christian and I am a Jew! Unlike Israel, I am not trying to claim I am something I am not. nowhere do I state I am a Christian- yet “messianic jews” make a big deal out of trying to claim they are Jews! You mosrepresent yourself- you get to deal with the consequences of that!

  7. Dovid permalink

    Well, your reasoning is sound and a good answer to those who seem to think that if you ignore missionaries they will just go away. I am very surprised at you being able to argue Christian scriptures and making the Messianic Jewish apologist look as deceitful as you portray. I am not sure why you bother though, people can hear missionary arguments in many places.

    • I read the Christian scriptures years ago before I became observant. I also read the Koran, Bagavadta Gita, some of the writings of Hahalusa, Dianetics, some of the writings of Madame Blatavsky (Theosophy) and others. Then I found my way back to Judaism and started studying it seriously.

      As for allowing the argument here- it’s simple really: Dan is helping me to show how “messianic jews” behave. Israel has tried to enter into an argument with misquotes from the Torah to try and justify his position- so his comments are not appearing. I will not allow the Torah to be degraded and misappropriated by missionaries while they are on this blog. Unless they learn to treat the Torah and Jewish writings respectfully and without trying to impose Christian interpretations onto the text, their comments with Torah quotations will not appears.

  8. Since you can’t clearly read, let me show you:

    Paul writes “all things to all men” yet just before writes also “I am not free from God’s law but am under Mashiach’s Torah.” Reconcile the two, and you will find that there are limits to “all things” that Paul would do.

  9. Dan Benzvi permalink

    >> thank Israel for showing the inability of “messianic jews” to discuss anything without resorting to personal insults. It is most enlightening that even on a blog where such behaviour has been posted about, they cannot restrain themselves from indulging in it<<

    Why don't you practice what you preach?

    • I used a personal insult against him? What- since when is calling a Christian a Christian an insult? Or do you object to someone trying to justify Christianity to a Jew something besides a Christian and a missionary?

  10. Dan Benzvi permalink

    Since you deleted Israel’s comment we do not really know if he distorted Torah, do we? No cigar here my friend…..

    When you say Judaism, to what Judaism are you referring to?

    Orthodox, who elevate man made rules and regulation above the word of God?
    Reform, who ordain gay rabbis, and perform same sex marriages?
    Reconstructionists, who took God completely out of the picture?
    Maybe Lubavitch, who believe in a man as divine messiah?
    which one is it, we are dying to know…..

    You also claim to know a lot about me, right? Do you think that anyone who exposes you as an uneducated buffon is a christian? FYI, I am probably a better Jew than you. I was born and raised in Israel to Jewish parents, served in the Israeli navy, have a son who served in the IDF. Can you claim the same?
    You probably don;t even know Hebrew but have the chutzpah to decide who distors Torah…It is my time to LOL now……

    • Well then, you’re just going to have to take my word for it- or you could just ask him if he tried to use the Torah to bolster his claims or not.

      As for your attemots to try and attack various elements of Judaism- do try not to show your ignorance so glaringly! Lubavitch kicked out yechi (those trying to proclaim the R’ Schneerson as messiah) years ago, the movement has been out into Cherem by the American Rabbinical Association and various other Jewish groups, and its estimated that their numbers are down to less than 1000 worldwide. Yet it seems a common tactic of “messainic jews” to try and lie about Lubavitch Jews in an attempt to try and justify their Christian sect!

      As for Orthodox- we obey G-d and G-d’s laws. If you are incapable or lack the necessary capacity to study Orthodox Judaism and understand that, that’s YOUR issue, not mine. All your statement about Orthodox Judaism ends up doing is showing your completely Christian viewpoint and complete lack of Jewish education- putting a lot of doubt on your supposed connection to Judaism- especially while spouting Christian theology! it really doesn’t matter what you want to call yourself- the simple reality is that if you believe in Jesus Christ and spout Christian theology, you are a CHRISTIAN and not a Jew!

      And don’t worry about my Hebrew- conversationally I need practice- reading is just great, as is my Aramaic (both the dialects from the Talmud Bavli and Talmud Yerushalmi). My library at home is extensive- and mostly in Hebrew, especially since most books are not translated! You ever seen an English Shulkhan Aruch, Arbah Turim, Iggeros Moshe or Hilchos Shleimah? How about an English translation of Midrash Tanchumah, Yalkut Shimoni or Darchei Chaim? You seem to have zero knowledge of the Orthodox Jewish community and the fact that it is common practice for Orthodox Jews to study in Hebrew and Aramaic and NOT in English or other translation

  11. Dan Benzvi permalink

    They probably had a sale on the books, right? How much were they per lbs. LOL….The colors probably go with the wallpaper in you house, no? Since you have admittedly say that you do not know Hebrew. Knowing how to read does not mean you understand what you are reading….

    A novice is a novice is a novice…..If you are a representative of anti-missionary, we do not have anything to worry about, do we?

    • Hilarious- it seems that Dan is out to prove that “messianic jews”, when unable to say anything intelligent, resort to meaningless personal insults! It also appears that he cannot read- since I stated that I do know Hebrew! LOL It is a pity that he feels he has to prove my point about ‘messianic jews” and their resorting to insults- but, sadly, it is something I have come to expect and it no longer surprises me.

  12. Dan Benzvi permalink

    Until this poster has apologised for previous insults and refrains from utilising further insults, no more comments from him will be allowed

  13. Solomon permalink

    Why allonyoav are you blocking future posts from Dan Benzvi, because you feel you need an apology? According to? The Torah According to Allonyoav? The Talmud with a commentary according to Marc?

    Now we are censuring what can and can not be posted on your glorified rag sheet? So typical of Tabloids, sensationalize the facts and slant them to sell more copy?

    Even in American Journalism there are publications that aim to reveal the truth. Your version of the Truth can’t be questioned I see. Christians were often burned at the stake and thrown to the Lions to retract the Truth and deny their belief in Yeshua. Are you an adherent of similar tactics in 2010? Either we retract what we consider the truth or you’ll do away with us?

    Even The Christian Science Monitor puts your journalistic policies to shame.

    • Do follow why he is required to apologise- it is for the insults he aimed at me personally. Now, he is welcome to go around insulting people as much as he likes elsewhere. However, here he will learn to behave like an adult and refrain from resorting to insults when he is unable to answer a post. The first step to that is his apologising for his childish insults.

      As for the Torah and Talmud- I am perfectly happy t have JEWISH interpretations. However, the misinterpretations and deliberate distortions of missionaries will NOT appear here! The purpose of this blog is not to debate Judaism or Christianity. Quite frankly I don’t care what your version of the truth is- and when “messianic jews” refrain from misrepresentation and lying- when they learn to stop trying to claim they are Jewish while espousing Christian theology, the purpose of this blog will have been achieved. Let the “messianic jews” have whatever beliefs they want- as long as they stop misrepresenting themselves as Jews when they are not!

  14. THERE IS A HIYUV TO STOP LIES, DECIET, AND FAKERS. MESSIANICS=XIANS.
    THEY TRY TO CONVERT JEWS, INDIRECTLY, AND SOMETIMES EVEN DIRECTLY.
    THEY ARE NOT JEWS, AND ARE HURTING US JEWS.
    WE ARE KNOWN FOR NOT TRYING TO CONVERT PEOPLE, AND NOW THYE ARE GIVING US A BAD NAME.

    • “messianic jews” are fighting a battle of perceptions. They are desperate to try and gain recognition as a Jewish movement- but no Jewish denomination will accept them. They also face a growing battle to try and alter the perception of them as being manipulative, deceitful liars willing to do anything to convert Jews- and there it is not just Jews they are trying to convince- but even other evangelical Christian denominations that while happy to preach and try to convert Jews, draw the libe at the dishonesty and tactics of the “messianic jews”!

  15. EXACTLY!
    השם יתן לנו כח לקיים מצוותיו ולעשןת רצונו בלבב שלם ולהשמיד את השקר מן העולם ובזה יבא המשיח
    תגיד אמן

  16. For a comment and reply based on this post see: https://messianicsexposed.com/2010/07/14/comment-the-tragedy-of-death-when-detached-from-klal-yisrael/

    On the other post, based on this one, the issue was raised if I support the death penalty for “messianic jews”- my comment there answered this accusation

  17. An interesting atttempt to attack me and accuse me of lying on a “messianic jewish” blog. I have responded there to the accusations

    edit: The trackback below is no longer functional- Rosh Pina has deleted the post attacking me once its author apologised to me. It seems that hosting attacks and slander is ok- but not apologies!

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  1. Debate on Messianics Exposed « The Rosh Pina Project

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