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News: Anglican Church in North America Divides up Continent for Evangelism and 1,000 Church Plants

July 8, 2010

The above news story was sent to me by a reader of this blog and can be found in full at VirtueOnline. So, Why post about it here? What has this got to do with “messianic judaism?” Well, let me quote the relevant paragraph

Other milestones noted by ecumenism task force chairman Ray Sutton also show how the ACNA is forging connections outside mainline Protestantism. These include evangelism alongside messianic Jews. The ACNA is also inviting 17 messianic Jewish groups to a September summit to explore “how we can do ministry together,” said Sutton, “We could get their congregations together with our congregations to fellowship, to pray and to seek ways that we be able to evangelize together among Jews and Gentiles,” said Sutton, rector of the Church of the Holy Communion in Dallas and an REC bishop.

So, it appears that the “messianic jews” are going to be helped out in their attempts to convert Jews by the Anglican Church in the USA. Well, at least they refer to them alongside their evangelical Christian brethen!

From → News

36 Comments
  1. Do you honestly think that the sole purpose of all messianic groups is to evangelize only?

    Do you honestly believe that those who claim to be messianic jews and who claim to be keeping Torah are in fact only keeping Torah just to deceive others and achieve their aim of making Jewish disciples?

    I am curious if this is really your belief concerning this group. If so, would you consider that perhaps the sole purpose for many of these groups to exist is because of a greater desire of teshuvah within greater Christendom, one that will lead to Torah and mitzvot, and proper understanding of Mashiach?

    • Do you honestly think that the sole purpose of all messianic groups is to evangelize only?

      Nope- I am sure that in every group there are those who are sane enough and understanding enough to not feel the need to try and impose their beliefs on others. However, based on the evidence I have posted here form the internet- I would say that doing missionary work and converting Jews is a major part of the beliefs of the majority of “messianic jewish” communities out there. I would also say that many utilise the trappings of Judaism and Torah as just that- trappings with little meaning for them outside of their role in converting Jews!

      If so, would you consider that perhaps the sole purpose for many of these groups to exist is because of a greater desire of teshuvah within greater Christendom, one that will lead to Torah and mitzvot, and proper understanding of Mashiach?

      Nope- I would not. And even if that were that case, i would see it as even boigger perversion of the Torah! Presenting a perverted version of the Torah into which Christianity has been inserted in order to reach Christians as if it were genuine Judaism, is one which would create even more hatred of genuine Jews and Judaism! If they want people to be better people- all they need to promulgate is the 7 Noachide laws relevant to non-Jews- their is no need to distort and lie about what the Torah says in order to get the non-Jews to follow a document which is not even written for them!

      • Dovid permalink

        Israel, I will be more direct: I think messianic jews pretend to be Jews and follow Torah merely to convert Jews. I do not think any of them are genuine in their belief about Torah no matter how much they pretend otherwise. I think messianic jews study Torah and other Jewish sources only to try and find scriptures they can twist and lie about to support their twisted beliefs and missionary work.

      • “I would also say that many utilise the trappings of Judaism and Torah as just that- trappings with little meaning for them outside of their role in converting Jews!”

        As one of “them” for the past 13 years, and having visited several dozen different congregations from various parts of the spectrum, I can say that in all of those, their primary desire to “utilize the trappings of Judaism and Torah” is deeply rooted in their love for and discipleship to the Jewish identity of Jesus. That it has implications in their witness to Jews is merely a bonus, and is not the reason that takes a church-going gentile out of the church and into a messianic congregation where they get a taste of Torah, or in other cases the full-on expectations of a Jewish convert. This is viewed as a “problem” by some churches, as they view such people as having “gone back under the law” – yet the people do it anyways.

        The response to such a charge – that one is engaging in Torah – has NEVER been (as long as I’ve known MJs) “well, it’s to reach the Jews.” Instead the response has ALWAYS been some theological answer as to why doing Torah and mitzvot is a good thing, and/or was taught and encouraged by Jesus and his disciples (even Paul – which is what I argue with Christians and my fellow Jewish brothers). Never once have I heard of anyone doing Torah based on some primary motivation of evangelism. EVER. I have yet to meet one. If one does, then they have lost the theological argument and shouldn’t be doing Torah anyways – as you indicated – since it would be a sham and not true Torah. But I have yet to meet a self-described “Torah observant” MJ defend their Torah obedience by first mentioning that they are doing it for Jewish evangelism. On the contrary, the first argument is always made for the legality of keeping Torah as a follower of Jesus. Go test this yourself. Go ask ’em, even if you have to pose as a J4J, or Catholic. You will get the same answer.

        “And even if that were that case, i would see it as even bigger perversion of the Torah! Presenting a perverted version of the Torah into which Christianity has been inserted in order to reach Christians as if it were genuine Judaism, is one which would create even more hatred of genuine Jews and Judaism!”

        I disagree on both counts. Clearly I can make arguments for the case of Torah observance with Christians, and I win every time. Every time. Every single time. Why? Because the truth has nothing to lose and never does. And the belief that such a teaching (that Torah is for Christians) would foster anti-semitism is so beyond the pale of my experience, that I would daresay you’ve not sat in on a “bible study” between MJs and Christians concerning the matter. On the contrary, a greater love for Torah and Judaism is fostered, to the point that as I described above, gentiles from the churches are looking for messianic congregations or groups in order to further their learning and application. In fact, even anti-missionary groups see the Messianic movement as having “unintended consequences” which turns out to be a benefit for the Jewish community, in that it’s not Jews that are being converted en masse, but rather the effect has been that many gentiles in the churches are the ones being led to seek true orthodox Jewish conversion!

      • Clearly you think people are completely blinded by “messianic jewish’ rhetoric and are unable to see for themselves what goes on. sure, I have no doubt there are those who are genuine in their beliefs and study Torah because they believe in it. However, clearly there are just as many who take the “great commission” seriously and will do anything they can to fulfill it!

        As for how people pretending that Jews can follow the Torah and can be Jewish at the same time can lead to anti-Semitism, step back from being offended for a second and consider this: Many evangelical Christians believe that most, if not all Jews in Israel need to accept Jesus before he will return. So, Jews refusing to accept Jesus is what is preventing the messiah from coming. Now, if Judaism is different from Christianity and incompatable, then Jews not becoming Christians might be something to try and change, but no malice can be interpreted. However- if Judaism is compatable with Christianity, if Judaism does fit in with Jesus as the messiah- then suddenly the refusal of Jews to accept Jesus becomes a thing of malice and deliberate provocation. No longer is a case of two sets of differing beliefs, but now it is a case of people with the same beliefs, but one groups is deliberately preventing something wonderful for the second group- and there begins the anti-Semitism. And before stating this could not happen- we see this very clearly with Martin Luther. At one stage he was friendly to the Jews, accepted that they could not accept Christianity- but he reckoned that as soon as he fixed what he saw as the problems with the Roman Catholic Church, that the Jews would immediately accept Christianity since then it would be compatable with Judaism. when the Jews still rejected Christianity even though he reckoned that now it was fully compatable with Judaism, he became virulently anti-Semitic! “messianic judaism” is just a further reason on top of that- now not only do you have Chrsitians saying that Judaism and Christianity are compatable, but that there are even Jews who recognise it and the rest of the Jews are just anti-Christian and thus reject Christianity and Christians!

      • @Dovid:

        “I think messianic jews pretend to be Jews and follow Torah merely to convert Jews. I do not think any of them are genuine in their belief about Torah no matter how much they pretend otherwise.”

        Then you do not know us at all.

      • @m.e.

        “However- if Judaism is compatable with Christianity, if Judaism does fit in with Jesus as the messiah- then suddenly the refusal of Jews to accept Jesus becomes a thing of malice and deliberate provocation.”

        On the contrary. It is when Judaism is virulently removed from Christianity, that such “malice and deliberate provocation” is spawned. I am not aware of any other Jewish sect that still saw itself as a sect of Judaism, going out and killing other Jews en masse. That other sects don’t recognize Jesus as the messiah, is inconsequential to his return on many theological fronts.

      • Your answer shows your lack of experience of being a Jew! You know what’s funny? When a Jew acts like a Jew, they get treated respectfully (by most, of course there are always exceptions), when a Jew does not act like a Jew, they get treated badly. I learnt this lesson when I was a student and newly religious. In our crowd of friends, there were mostly non-Jews, and just me and one other Jewish guy. When out one night, a guy started with me because I was wearing my yarmulke, the group was upset and forced him to apologise. Yet the same people that didn’t hesitate to come to my defense would make the same comments that had been directed to me, and worse, to the other Jew in the group. So, I asked them what the difference was- why they felt they could talk to him badly, but would not to me, and would even go so far as to nearly get into a fight when someone did talk badly to Judaism about me. The answer was “You are a PROPER Jew, H isn’t. If he doesn’t care about his Judaism, why should we?” The lesson was simple- when a Jew is a Jew, people respect them for it. Some might hate them for it, but they respect he fact that the person is a Jew. “messianic judaism” alters that equation- suddenly, the Jew who is actually a Jew rejecting Christianity is not acting like a Jew anymore, after all, according to “messianic jews” you can be Jewish AND believe in Jesus- thus the Jew acting like a Jew is now not a Jew following his religion, but what Augustine and the anti-Semitic early Church fathers painted the Jews as- servants of the devil who know that Jesus is the messiah but seek to prevent his return because of guilt at killing him! And yes, I have had that accusation thrown at me before you try to claim there is no such belief amongst Christians!

      • I’ve been called Christ-killer (I respond by saying that Jesus himself is a Jew – and if you follow him, then why aren’t you?), been made fun of, offered pork intentionally, and even chased by skinheads for failing to “take that crap off your head.” I am not afraid.

        Someone once pointed out that even if the rest of the Jewish community doesn’t agree, we’re Jewish enough to burn in the ovens, so I don’t see your point. This isn’t a game we’re playing. I’ve had my share of death threats. But I can’t walk away from who I am. If I did, I’d be walking away from the rest of the community that suffers the same.

        I personally deal with anti-semtism by confronting it head on with the truth. If someone would kill Jesus for being a Jew then who am I to claim exception to what he suffered? It would be disingenuous with who he is, and who I am as his disciple, if I were to distance myself from his identity and his suffering – a suffering he shares as the head of the nation of all Israel.

        You mention “according to “messianic jews” you can be Jewish AND believe in Jesus- thus the Jew acting like a Jew is now not a Jew following his religion”

        I disagree, and I don’t think that this is the conclusion they draw either. One can follow their religion, based on what they know (and it is easily and sadly seen that many Jews in society don’t know Torah), but the moment they know more, that is the moment they are held responsibible by HaShem for doing something about it. It is this knowledge (from a Torah perspective) that if one truly has no argument against, that one can only be held reponsible before HaShem.

        “but what Augustine and the anti-Semitic early Church fathers painted the Jews as- servants of the devil who know that Jesus is the messiah but seek to prevent his return because of guilt at killing him!”

        I’ve heard of all kinds of reasons for antisemetics to despise the identity of Jesus and use it to gain an advantage over the Jew (who knows more Torah in such cases than the antisemetic). But this isn’t a Jewish only issue. It’s a sin issue, and an antitruth issue. Certainly one who denies who Jesus is (his Jewish identity) is one who Jesus will also say to them “depart from me for I never knew you.” Augustine and the so-called “early church fathers” were no more representative of true Torah Judaism than a pagan priestess.

        Yet if Christians would only make teshuvah, there wouldn’t BE any antisemtism! For them to to walk in Torah, to go through proper orthodox conversion, to be frum, shomer, you name it, all of it, in total imitation of the Master, out of love for HaShem and others, this is what I dream about and see it happening more and more every day.

        You and I can discuss theology all day long, but in the end, if we still disagree, after saying kiddush and breaking bread, beyond that point, the matter can only be determined by who really is more shomer then. And I argue that frum orthodox Jews who follow Yeshua as the Messiah, are more shomer than anyone – looking very chassidic in every way. This goes back to your point that when a Jew is a Jew, people respect them for it. Precisely. If in the end we still disagree, I would only hope that respect would still remain.

      • Judaism is NOT defined by how the anti-Semites define Jews! Just because Hitler would have defined somebody as Jewish, it does not mean that they are Jewish according to Judaism. Pseudo scientific nonsense is not what defines Judaism; bizarre racial theories do not define Jews- The Torah and the Torah alone defines who and what a Jew is! The fact that Hitler would have killed you means that you qualify for the law of return to enter Israel- it does NOT mean you are Jewish!

        as for an Orthodox Jew that becomes a follower of Jesus- they are no longer Jewish! They have left Klal Yisrael to affiliate themselves to another religion! Sadly, it is this person that is referenced in the first Mishnah of of Chapter Chelek in masechta Sanhedrin, the mumar, the one who, even while obeying every law in the Torah adds in observances from other religions and, as a result, loses his connection to Bnei Yisrael and no longer has a share in Olam HaBa! and the Gemorrah there is very clear that no matter how well he may follow the Torah; no matter how closely he adheres to every single halachah mi’d’oraiso. mi’d’rabban, mi’d’chukotai- by adding in observances and beliefs from other eligions, he seperates himself from the Torah and loses his place in the world to come!

        For those interested in my full discussion on “Who is a Jew” see http://marcl1969.wordpress.com/2010/07/05/who-is-a-jew/
        For a discussion on genetics and how it is not a determination of Jewishness see http://marcl1969.wordpress.com/?s=genetics

        Both the above articles are by mysef and found on my other blog

      • @m.e.

        I agree that Judaism is not defined by anti-Semites. And I agree with the Torah’s definition of who is a Jew.

        “as for an Orthodox Jew that becomes a follower of Jesus- they are no longer Jewish!” – I clearly and totally disagree, as that call is not based on any rational argument from the Torah, when the case is fully examined. Granted, when one makes Jesus an idol, you are correct. But not when Jesus is not an idol, but simply the Messiah.

        “by adding in observances and beliefs from other religions, he seperates himself from the Torah and loses his place in the world to come!”

        I totally agree! Yet I totally disagree that one who follows Jesus as the Messiah is “adding in observances and beliefs from other religions” to the Torah. Torah Torah Torah! It all goes back to Torah.Can what I believe about Jesus be substantiated in the Torah? YES! But you don’t want to discuss it here. I can respect that. It’s your forum. But don’t stop your ears up. Torah truth has nothing to be ashamed of. I only want to be proven wrong. I (hopefully like you), also desire to make teshuvah. I want to be shown HOW I’m wrong, and not just told that I am. After all, I know a thing or two about Torah, and that is what is causing me to challenge you and every one else (Jew and gentile) about what THEY know about the Torah as well. I have yet to have lose a rational Torah argument on the matter, which for someone who really wants to believe that you’re right, is rather disconcerting since almost every day I am convinced even more about the truth I know since I seem to not be losing the argument. I’m only hoping to find someone to convince me from Torah that I am wrong. I’ve read the J4J and Aish arguments. I’ve written questions based on arguments countering them, and have received no satisfactory answers. It’s like I’m told over and over again “belief in Jesus is against Torah” yet when all the pagan fluff is taken out of it, there is nothing against Torah in believing he’s the messiah! In fact, I find the opposite: that everything in Torah points to the fact that he IS messiah.

        So this brings me back to what you said. What observances and beliefs, when the pagan elements of traditional Christianity are removed, conflict with Torah, and thus render one a follower of such, as one removed from Judaism? I don’t find any conflict. At all.

      • You seem to think it is your definition that counts, and not those of the sages. Their view was clear: they kicked the Christians out from amongst the Jews. Clearly, they had no problems in seeing the Christians as being non-Jewish even before the time of Constantine and the formalisation of Christian doctrine at the council of Nicea. And they had good reason: a person that does not do what the mashiach will do is NOT the mashiach! When Bar Kochba failed, Rabbi Akivah admitted his error. In the modern era, when the Lubavitcher Rebbe failed, they admitted their error and Yechi is now a dissapearing movement which is in cherem. Being wrong does not make one lose their Jewishness- insisting on someone being the mashiach when they clearly failed to fulfill ANY of the messianic prophecies, and then adding new writings into the Jewish canon as part of what you study and how you worship- DOES make you into an apostate and outside of Judaism! Whether or not YOU agree is completely immaterial. You do not define Judaism- Jews do. And Jews then, and now, all agree: Jesus was NOT the mashiach, the books written by his followers have nothing to do with Judaism- and those incorporating him and those books into their worship are NOT Jewish and are outside of the Jewish community. Again- it doesn’t matter if you agree with us or not- you do not decide what is Judaism- Jews do! It doesn’t matter if you think there is no conflict- Jews see a conflict, and as Jews define Judaism and not you, that conflict has been deemed sufficient to remove any person worshipping Jesus from the Jewish community and people!

        And before you start some nonsense like: Its not Jews but G-d who decides; of course G-d decides, and he told us clearly in the Torah and Mishnah. The fact that you want to reinterpret those and ignore what Jews have to say is immaterial. Jews will go according to the Jewish understanding- you are welcome to your Christian interpretation- just be honest and call it that instead of trying to pretend it is Judaism!

      • “You seem to think it is your definition that counts, and not those of the sages.”

        It’s not my definition. It’s the definition of other great Jewish sages such as Shimon b. Yonah, Yaakov b. Zebdi, and R. Shaul, among many others.

        “Their view was clear: they kicked the Christians out from amongst the Jews.”

        Not all.

        “Clearly, they had no problems in seeing the Christians as being non-Jewish even before the time of Constantine and the formalisation of Christian doctrine at the council of Nicea.”

        You have absolutely zero, none, no historical proof of this statement above: “non-Jewish,” whatsoever. None. You’re making it up, and I will call you out on that.

        “And they had good reason: a person that does not do what the mashiach will do is NOT the mashiach!”

        Agreed!

        “When Bar Kochba failed, Rabbi Akivah admitted his error. In the modern era, when the Lubavitcher Rebbe failed, they admitted their error and Yechi is now a dissapearing movement which is in cherem”

        And you know, the difference between Bar Kochba, the Rebbe, and Jesus, is that only the disciples of Jesus claim to have seen him alive after his death – risen from the dead! Of no other messianic candidate is this true of. Thus THAT is why I believe he alone is messiah. They failed to do what messiah would do according to Torah – and that is, rise from the dead (Abel, Isaac, Joseph, Moses being people Torah uses to teach us this even).

        “insisting on someone being the mashiach when they clearly failed to fulfill ANY of the messianic prophecies, and then adding new writings into the Jewish canon as part of what you study and how you worship- DOES make you into an apostate and outside of Judaism!”

        He fulfilled many messianic prophesies and expectations as understood from Torah. The Prophets couldn’t even add to or subtract from that list either. And Jesus didn’t. But you don’t want to discuss specifics here. So be it.

        “You do not define Judaism- Jews do. And Jews then, and now, all agree: Jesus was NOT the mashiach, the books written by his followers have nothing to do with Judaism- and those incorporating him and those books into their worship are NOT Jewish and are outside of the Jewish community.”

        The Jews who believe Jesus is the Messiah, do agree that Jesus is the mashiach, and that the books written by his followers have everything to do with Judaism (because they don’t add or subtract from Torah), yet they don’t incorporate them into their worship, and if they did it would be Torah they would be incorporating since all teaching and doctrine can not add or subtract from the Torah.

        “that conflict has been deemed sufficient to remove any person worshipping Jesus from the Jewish community and people”

        Talk about adding to Torah. There is not one single shred of evidence or precedent ever talked about or even hinted at in the Torah that such a statement such as yours above holds any weight in truth. At all. Conflict alone is not sufficient for spiritual excision. Idolatry is. In fact, when was the last time you sat down with more than a few Jewish brothers and not disputed about something? Conflict alone does not remove someone from the community. According to Torah, only idolatry does (as well as murder and adultery).

        Now are you going to provide proof of your statements, or are you going to concede my point? I don’t mind if you just want to disagree and just walk away. That’s your prerogative. I just don’t want you saying stuff that just isn’t true, and I’m sure your audience doesn’t want to see that either. You can’t substantiate without dispute any of the quoted claims above.

      • It’s not my definition. It’s the definition of other great Jewish sages such as Shimon b. Yonah, Yaakov b. Zebdi, and R. Shaul, among many others.

        Hilarious! What, you think if you use Hebrew versions of the names of the the disciples of Jesus it makes them any more credible? LOL All it does is show your desperation to try and pass Christianity off as Judaism! The disciples of Jesus were NOT sages, they were not Jewish religious authorities and it would appear that most of them had very little to no knowledge of actual Judaism from reading the gospels written in their names! Heh, but i tahnk you for demonstrating the tactic of ‘messianic jews” in altering terminology to try and make it sound more Jewish to try and make it more acceptable to Jews!

        The bottom line is that the Rabbis and sages of the Sanhedirn composed ‘lamalshinim”; the rabbis and sages kicked the worshippers of Jesus out of the synagogues, the Rabbis and sages rejected the new sect, rejected their books, beliefs and practices. That was the Jewish position 2000 years ago, and it remains the Jewish position today

        Jesus did NOT fulfill any prophecies- where is world peace? Where is the Temple and Temple service? Where do you see Jews being treated as priests to the other nations? Where is an end to poverty and disease? Where is the resurrection of the dead? None of the actual Messianic prophecies were fulfilled proving him to not be the messiah. And the books regarding him are NOT considered to be Jewish books but those of another religion; and those incorporating them into Judaism are in another religion, outside of the Jewish community and due to be punished with kares in the world to come!

        Again, go and read the Mishnah and Gemorrah I referred to in Chapter Chelek of Masechta Sanhedrin and you will see the statement and discussion around those who incorporate the books of other religions into Judaism and their status. It should be a hint to you that it is in a section dealing with those who lose their place in the world to come! And if you want to deny the authenticity of the Talmud, then you just prove how removed you are form Judaism- incorporating the books from other religions but denying the writings of the Jewish authorities merely because they conflict with your Christian beliefs!

      • Now we know who the ssenbile one is here. Great post!

  2. Do you honestly think that the sole purpose of all messianic groups is to evangelize only?

    Do you honestly believe that those who claim to be messianic jews and who claim to be keeping Torah are in fact only keeping Torah just to deceive others and achieve their aim of making Jewish disciples?

    I am curious if this is really your belief concerning this group. If so, would you consider that perhaps the sole purpose for many of these groups to exist is because of a greater desire of teshuvah within greater Christendom, one that will lead to Torah and mitzvot, and proper understanding of Mashiach? And would you consider that the main reason some of them look to acceptance within greater Judaism is simply due to their desire to be part of a larger Torah obedient community in order to keep more Torah?

    • Hmm- see my answer to your other comment which is basically this one without the last line

      And would you consider that the main reason some of them look to acceptance within greater Judaism is simply due to their desire to be part of a larger Torah obedient community in order to keep more Torah?

      Quite frankly, why they would want to be part of Judaism, when they are not Jewish, is beyond me. If people believe in Jesus as the Mashiach, son of G-d or prophet, they are NOT following Judaism- it is as simple as that. Their is no confusion or grey areas here- the line here is very clear. So whether or not they want to identify with Judaism is immaterial- Judaism rejects them, and their attempts to claim to be Jewish and part of the greater Jewish community is just deceit, lies and misrepresentation. They want to keep Torah even though there mode of worship is in violation of Torah- that is their business and has nothing to do with Jews- what is relevant to Jews is when people who are NOT Jewish start claiming their religion is Jewish and actually attacking and insulting Jews who stick to what Jews have believed and practiced for the last 3500 years!

      • “Quite frankly, why they would want to be part of Judaism, when they are not Jewish, is beyond me.”

        That they have reason to believe they are Jewish (they have not been dissuaded since they have arguments backing up their claim) your “quite frankly” statement doesn’t stand since they know they are Jewish, and as Jews want to be part of Judaism just like all other Jews (and I’m talking about the Torah observant MJs from above).

        “If people believe in Jesus as the Mashiach, son of G-d or prophet, they are NOT following Judaism- it is as simple as that. ”

        That is a disagreeable position to hold, especially from my understanding of Torah. No matter how much you may think I and others have tried to “insert Christian theology” into the Torah, and other such a priori assumptions, or suspect eisegesis, the case can be made, has been made, and is often made by MJs to Christians (in their successful attempts to show that Torah is the foundation of all truth concerning Mashiach) as well as to unbelieving Jews, that the Torah is clear as to who Mashiach is, what our responsibility as Jews are, and what we are to expect in our lives now and in the World to Come.

        This desire to “go back to Torah” for the truth of what they believe stems not from an evangelistic desire (that’s secondary) but from a core desire of wanting to know the truth of the matter (and often with a suspicion towards teachers, which comes from their “realization” that their “pastor/teacher” has been wrong in their theology for so many years – often the breaking point being the issue over keeping Shabbat, which is usually after their realization that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays). That is WHY they are 1st generation MJs in the first place: their desire for truth as scripture reveals and not as “man teaches.” Obviously this causes problems with orthodox Judaism, since it’s rife with orthodox opinion, but at least it gets them on a path to teshuvah.

        This desire for truth (as they see it), and however misinformed for some, has led to the wide spectrum of beliefs and practices that you see today among various types of MJ congregations, and explains why true Torah observant orthodox-leaning or orthodox MJs are the minority. It also explains the defensiveness of those caught in the middle ground, a middle ground of “not quite accepting the rabbi’s teachings” and “do it my way” that such isolation seems to foster – and what you’ve experienced in the various postings on your blog.

        It is the isolation that is the biggest result of the root of the matter: their distrust of authority (because they trusted their pastors all their lives to teach them the truth), and wariness at anything they can’t understand from Torah. Their desire to cling to the familiar (Jesus “is G-d” etc.) serves as their anchor as they make their way through Torah, some even severing that anchor when they get to Numbers 27. Yet other changing out the anchor for something else (HaShem is a man of war) when they get to the Song at the Sea. It is those who only know Numbers 27 that “jump ship” and eventually seek orthodox Jewish conversion from non MJ communities. Yet there are still many of those who do not do so since they’ve found The Song at the Sea, and maintain what I would call a “proper Torah perspective on Mashiach,” that is, one who is not G-d, but is certainly called HaShem, and does the work of HaShem, he being His agent in this world.

        There are several thousand of “us.” Yet the greater Jewish community doesn’t know it. They attack the more popular J4Js, and the more involved realize there are Torah observant MJs (such as yourself), but only the few realize that there are orthodox Jewish Torah observant MJs. Some of which attend orthodox shuls, since their theology more closely matches orthodox Judaism than any other religion. This is where I and others are at. Yes, the dividing point seems to be over the identity of Mashiach. But when it’s recognized that when all else is argued, there is no disagreement that we are not engaging in avodah zarah (since we don’t “worship” Jesus, and don’t make the claim that he is “G-d”), and thus our status as Jews is not and should never be, questioned. That Judaism was the belief and religion of the earliest disciples of Jesus is also not questioned, and that their status as Jews is not questioned either, seems to be two points often missed in determining who and what people like me are who hold their same non-pagan views.

        Now do understand this, I don’t know of any orthodox Jewish disciples of Jesus pretending that the rest of Judaism accepts them. Even Jesus himself said that those following him would be kicked out of synagogues. Since we identify with Mashiach Ben Yosef, it’s the same rejection he experienced. For some of us, it’s a tough pill to swallow since we desire larger community. But HaShem shows us that we will suffer and continue to suffer part of the rejection Mashiach himself faced, just like Moshe was rejected the first time by the very people he rescued and then fled to Midian.

        I am sorry you get a lot of flak and witness a lot of dishonesty among those claiming to be of us. I just want you to encourage you to keep this blog up, expose the lies that need to be exposed, so that truth can stand, and so that we all can make teshuvah. Shalom.

      • That they have reason to believe they are Jewish (they have not been dissuaded since they have arguments backing up their claim) your “quite frankly” statement doesn’t stand since they know they are Jewish, and as Jews want to be part of Judaism just like all other Jews (and I’m talking about the Torah observant MJs from above).

        Of course my statement follows- the fact that they want to call themselves Jewish when the entire Jewish world has categorically rejected them does not make them Jewish. I can scream and shout as much as I like that I am an American citizen- as long as the government of the USA does not agree and refuses me an American passport, I am not one. It is not fringe groups or individuals that decide membership, but the group itself!

        That is a disagreeable position to hold, especially from my understanding of Torah. No matter how much you may think I and others have tried to “insert Christian theology” into the Torah, and other such a priori assumptions, or suspect eisegesis, the case can be made, has been made, and is often made by MJs to Christians (in their successful attempts to show that Torah is the foundation of all truth concerning Mashiach) as well as to unbelieving Jews, that the Torah is clear as to who Mashiach is, what our responsibility as Jews are, and what we are to expect in our lives now and in the World to Come.

        It is NOT a disagreeable position to hold that inserting Jesus into Judaism means it is no longer Judaism! It has been the stance of the jewish world for the last 2000 years and remains the stance of the Jewish world. The fact that a Christian misisonary movement now wants to try and alter Judaism by twisting and misrepresenting what the Torah says in order to justify their attempts to destroy Judaism by turning it into just another Christian sect is the objectionable behaviour! The bottom line is that no matter how you try to alter the central message of the Torah, no matter how you twist Jewish writings and beliefs to try and accomodate Christianity, the central fact remains that Jesus is NOT part of Judaism, a divine messiah is NOT part of Judaism, G-d manifest in a human body is NOT part of Judaism, a messiah who fails to fulfill any of the messianic prophecies is NOT a part of Judaism etc.

      • “It is not fringe groups or individuals that decide membership, but the group itself!”

        That assumes there is anything to be decided in the first place. But the fact that the whole thing is Jewish in the first place, means it never lost its identity as being Jewish. Only true avodah zarah is the crossing point of being no longer Jewish, but not all of those professing to be Christians are engaging in avodah zarah – especially the early members of the Jewish sect of HaDerech as recorded for us in the acronim ketuvim of Matthew-Revelation. Granted, many of the child sects of HaDerech through the hundreds of years that followed eventually fell sway to pagan influences, but at the very least they should be viewed as apostate sects (with the hope of return to Torah), and not something entirely separated from the historical Judaism they all can trace a connection to. What matters is in recognizing when someone is no longer engaged in avodah zarah, as having made teshuvah, and thus if Jewish originally, is still recognized as Jewish. This is understood concerning any apostate: they don’t have to go through conversion to Judaism again if they simply repent of their idol worship.

        Thus I can agree that the group determines who is let in, but this argument does not apply to the historical sect of Judaism known as HaDerech, of which I and others claim to represent and just happen to fall into the category of “Messianic Jews” since this is a more well known term, and one we attempt to continue to defend. The fact that our group was already “in” to begin with, and pre-dates even modern orthodox Judaism, (and thus MJ can be argued as being in the true line of authentic pharisaic Torah Judaism) is proof enough of its legitimacy, as the rest of the community does not have the authority from HaShem to cut off an entire sect of Jews who are NOT engaging in avodah zarah.

        And that is the case to be made. Are we engaging in avodah zarah, when we don’t believe as you claim:

        – a divine messiah
        – G-d manifest in a human body
        – nor a messiah who fails to fulfill any of the messianic prophecies

        yet still believe Jesus, (the Jesus we believe, and not what you may think he is or what others claim him to be), is the true messiah of Israel who is returning to take up the throne?

        And if we are not engaging in avodah zarah, then what disqualifies us as being Jews?

        I know, I know, this is your forum, not ours, but who exactly are you railing against? Us, or the Torah ignorant?

      • Whether you call it haDerech or Christianity, it does not alter the fact that it is NOT Judaism! Whether or not yu like the popular label for Christianity, or feel the need to create a new name for it to better hide your affiliation, is immaterial. “HaDerech” is NOT Judaism, but Christianity. The books of Mathew through to revelations are NOT Jewish books but the Christian scriptures. They are so replete with errors about Judaism and Jewish society at the time that it is a wonder that anyone with any knowledge of Judaism would be fooled into thinking that knowledgeable Jews had anything to do with writing them at the time!

        And Jews, and only Jews, decide who is Jewish! The Rabbis made the determination that the followers of Jesus, whether by your name of HaDerech or the more common name of Christianity, were NOT Jewish and were not welcome to be part of the Jewish community. Every Jewish authority agrees Christianity is idolatry for a Jew- the most lenient authorities state it is not idolatry for a non-Jew, but that view is not universal and some see it as idolatry for anyone, especially the Orthodox Churches with their icons and saints! Whether or not you, as a Christian trying to pose as Jew, agrees with what Jewish authorities says, is immaterial. A Jew who inserts Jesus into Judaism, who adds books from other religions to the Torah, is outside of the community- separated from the community in this world, and punished with Kares in the world to come! Read the first Mishnah in Chapter Chelek of Masechta Sanhedrin- see amongst the list of those who have no place in the world to come are those who study the books from other religions to insert their worship and practices into Judaism. For a really extensive commentary on this Mishnah read the commentary of the Maharal of Prague in Derekh Chaim, his commentary on Pirkei Avot (included there since the Mishnah serves as an introduction to Pirkei Avot). YOU might not consider what you are doing to be outside of Judaism- but Jews, those who get to define Judaism, state very clearly that what you are worshipping is CHRISTIANITY and has nothing to do with Judaism!

        So, even if you are not engaging in Avodah Zara by trying to equate Jesus with G-d or splitting G-d into multiple parts (aka the Trinity)- you have still left Judaism by including books from another religion in Judaism! Your Christian sect does not get to decide to add books to Judaism, especially not books which are, and always have been, rejected by Jews as they have nothing to do with Judaism but belong to a totally different religion!

      • They are so replete with errors about Judaism and Jewish society at the time that it is a wonder that anyone with any knowledge of Judaism would be fooled into thinking that knowledgeable Jews had anything to do with writing them at the time!

        That is disagreable, but obviously not here on your forum.

        And Jews, and only Jews, decide who is Jewish! Precisely. Which is why the following Jewish leaders: Peter, James, John… who were given smicha by the Messiah, recognized believers “of the Jews who believed!” Like Moshe, Jesus, if you recall, ordained 70. Others, such as Paul (who claimed in court that he had the authority and therefore smicha to cast his vote against believers), Nicodemus (who was a member of the Sanhedrin), and others as well of the sect of the Pharisees, who believed.

        “The Rabbis made the determination that the followers of Jesus, whether by your name of HaDerech or the more common name of Christianity, were NOT Jewish and were not welcome to be part of the Jewish community.”

        False! The Sanhedrin never decided such. The Sanhedrin never ruled that disciples of Jesus were no longer Jewish. There is no Torah precedent upon which to base such a ruling on anyways (if there is no avodah zarah)! Only HaShem can rule spiritual excision! This was not a national ruling, and the Sages and rabbis of generations past and present make their rulings about Christians and MJs today based on their ignorance of frum orthodox Jewish disciples of Jesus who are not engaging in avodah zarah.

        “A Jew …who adds books from other religions to the Torah…” transgresses the Torah. I know. The books of Matt-Rev don’t add or subtract from Torah, and predate the Talmud, and thus are included in the Writings of the TaNaKh since they are inspired commentary on the Torah and serve as a witness to the Mashiach when he first came.

        “Read the first Mishnah in Chapter Chelek of Masechta Sanhedrin- see amongst the list of those who have no place in the world to come are those who study the books from other religions to insert their worship and practices into Judaism”

        This statement is just as irrelevant to one who studies Matt-Rev as one who studies Tanya. They don’t add to Torah nor subtract from it. But you don’t want to discuss theology here, so we can’t go there. But it suffices to say that based on my knowledge and experience, I disagree with your assessment of proper application of this mishna as referring to one who studies Matt-Rev.

        I can see, however, such applying to the Book of Mormon. In the third or fourth paragraph of the intro to the BoM, it says “this book is more correct than any other book” – which contradicts Torah, and thus disqualifies itself, and thus anyone who studies the BoM would fall into one who has no place in the World to Come.

        Such a condemning teaching or statement is not found anywhere in Matt-Rev.

      • That is disagreable, but obviously not here on your forum.

        Right- a partial Sanhedrin would meet at night, in a private residence to hold a capital trial… Whoever wrote that had zero knowledge of the legal process in Judaism- and especially the fact that a court NEVER meets at night, never in a private residence- and in Jerusalem a capital trial was only heard in the courtyard of hewn stone, in the Temple, during the day, with all 70 members of the Sanhedrin, plus at leats three rows of students (so a minimum of 210 students of theirs) present. But lets forget the farcical account of the trial- how about the statement that it is forbidden to heal on Shabbos? Seems the author was unaware of the laws of pikuach nefesh! and so on as you go through the Christian scriptures. It is blatantly obvious that the authors had no knowledge of Jewish law and practices!

        As for Jesus giving out smichah- sorry, he never had the authority! Since he never received smichah, it means he never had the authority to pass it on. The gents you mention have nothing to do with Judaism and are NOT Jewish authorities. Jesus could not pass on a smichah he never received!

        And despite your claim that the Sanhedrin did not have the authority to rule Christians to be non-Jewish, the facts are otherwise! Who kicked the Christian’s out of the Synagogues? Who composed the prayer of “lamalshinim” because of slanderers that handed Jews studying Torah over to the Roman authorities? Yep- the Sanhedrin! And the Rabbis in the Sanhedrin did not just have the authority, they exercised it! The Sanhedrin could impose any number of Rabbinical bans, including ones that put a person completely outside of the community unless they repented and approached the Sanhedrin for forgiveness! And of course a ban can be imposed on someone importing any elements of another religion into Judaism! The Tora is clear that we cannto add to it. it is clea that we are not to practise or incorporate the elements of other religions into Judaism. It is clear that a person who does so puts himself outside of Klal Yisrael and is punished with Kares in the world to come.

        Regardless of how you decide to interpret the Tprah and Talmud- the interpretation oft he Jews is the same now as it was 2000 years ago, and when Rabbi Akivah made his statement. The books of Mathew- revelation are NOT Jewish books, they have NOTHING to do with Judaism- and incorporating them into your religion means that you religion is NOT Judaism, and if you ever were Jewish, you are no longer and will be punished with Kares when you die. Yes, I am sure you don;t like that statement- too bad. No Jewish denomination recognises those books as being Jewish- EVERY Jewish denomination recognises them as being part of another religion, and those incorporating them into their worship as being members of another religion!

    • “Right- a partial Sanhedrin would meet at night…”

      That is precisely the point. It was a farce trial in every single detail (that’s WHY it was recorded in the gospels as they are). It wasn’t even a legitimate ruling, yet I’ve met (sadly ignorant) J4Ju’s who make it a point that he was rightfully condemned by the Sanhedrin and thus I shouldn’t be following Jesus as a result if I hold to the Torah’s instruction to not “turn to the right or left.”

      “It is blatantly obvious that the authors had no knowledge of Jewish law and practices!”

      On the contrary. That is why they wrote the details of what happened, to prove the case that what was done was in fact CONTRARY to Jewish law and practice!

      “As for Jesus giving out smichah- sorry, he never had the authority! Since he never received smichah, it means he never had the authority to pass it on.”

      I disagree. I believe Numbers 27:18 clearly shows that Moses laid his hands on Yehoshua – both on Hoshea (peshat) and on Yehoshua (Jesus). Furthermore, it is testified in the gospels (Luke 9) that Moshe and Eliyahu both showed up with Jesus. It is immediately afterwords (Luke 10) that Jesus appoints and sends out the 70.

      And who laid hands on Moses to give him smicha? Why would we expect any different of the Messiah who is like Moses?

      “And despite your claim that the Sanhedrin did not have the authority to rule Christians to be non-Jewish, the facts are otherwise!”

      I never said they didn’t have the authority. I am saying they never made the ruling that followers of Jesus were no longer Jewish. The Sanhedrin passed rulings persecuting them for sure, but there is no clear ruling that the Jewish followers of Jesus had their Jewish status revoked.

      “And of course a ban can be imposed on someone importing any elements of another religion into Judaism! The Tora is clear that we cannto add to it. ”

      As explained above, there is no historical argument to prove then and now that what the Jewish disciples of Jesus believed were somehow outside the pale of orthodoxy, let alone outside of Torah Judaism, nor was such an authoritative decision on the matter rendered by the Sanhedrin.

      “it is clea that we are not to practise or incorporate the elements of other religions into Judaism. It is clear that a person who does so puts himself outside of Klal Yisrael and is punished with Kares in the world to come.”

      Absolutely agreed!

      “Regardless of how you decide to interpret the Tprah and Talmud- the interpretation oft he Jews is the same now as it was 2000 years ago, and when Rabbi Akivah made his statement.”

      Regardless of how you decide to interpret the Torah and the oral Torah, the interpretation of the Jews who have believed Jesus is the Messiah is the same now as it was 2000 years ago, and well before Rabbi Akivah made his statement.

      “The books of Mathew- revelation are NOT Jewish books, they have NOTHING to do with Judaism- and incorporating them into your religion means that you religion is NOT Judaism, and if you ever were Jewish, you are no longer and will be punished with Kares when you die.”

      Just telling me doesn’t make it so. I completely and totally disagree that they have NOTHING to do with Judaism, and on the contrary, I find EVERYTHING that is taught in Matt-Rev, in the Torah itself! Every teaching and doctrine. Everything. Nothing lacking. Nothing added. Nothing subtracted from Torah. Everything. How absolute do I have to be in my answer to convince you that Torah says otherwise? That you don’t seem to either know Matt-Rev, or the Torah, in order to make such a statement? I can prove otherwise, and still wait to be shown wrong. But I didn’t come here to win you over to discipleship to Jesus. I came here to stand up for the orthodox Jewish community that believes Jesus is the Messiah, and that they are still Jewish, and not engaging in avodah zarah, and that EVERYTHING they hold to is in line with Torah neither adding or subtracting from it.

      That you interpret this desire for self-defense as some sore of missionary effort on behalf of other MJs you’ve encountered, is sad. It shows that you really don’t know us, and that you only listen to what you want to hear, and not what is actually being said. But in my conversations with you, I find your intellect, and your patience to be quite opposite, and refreshingly kind, so your whole mission with this website doesn’t compute. I understand you’re upset at some of the tactics some MJs have taken to get their points across. I can only apologize for them. But if you’re going to continue with this blog, I also want you to understand us, to truly know us, before passing all kinds of judgments about us that are either unfounded or irrational.

      If you want to talk Torah, please say so. If you only want to complain about tactics, then complain about tactics used by both sides. Let’s have a blog that is objective when it comes to understanding tactics both oJ’s like yourself, and oJ’s like me, use to get their points across to the other. Perhaps by being objective, it will cause readers on both sides to make teshuvah.

      Anyways, sorry for the rant. I do appreciate your work. Shalom.

      • That is precisely the point. It was a farce trial in every single detail (that’s WHY it was recorded in the gospels as they are).

        It was recorded that way to create hatred of the Jews and to try and exonerate the Romans of responsibility. After all, you can’t tell the Roman’s they are responsible for killing the deity you want them to worship! The Christian scriptures spend so much time attacking the Pharisees for sticking to the letter if the law- yet suddenly, when convenient, they just ignore the law! The simple reality that history does not support the narrative int he Christian scriptures. the simple reality is that no trial was conducted by the Sanhedrin in such a fashion. the simple fact is that Pontius Pilates was never under the control of the Jews or worried about offending them- on the contrary, he was known for his cruelty and his excessive violence against his subjects. The Christian scriptures paint a picture of him completely at odds with the historical record. you might be comfortable with the Christian scriptures slandering the Sanhedrin and the great sages alive at the time. Jews will reject it for the hate mongering it is!

        As for you trying to claim you stand for the “Orthodox jewish community that believes in Jesus the messiah”- sorry, no such entity exists! Judaism rejected Jesus 2000 years ago; the Sanhedrin and Jewish authorities rejected him and the books written in his name 200o years ago (give or take a couple of centuries since many of the books only appeared long after his death). The Rabbis and Jewish people have rejected Jesus and the books written about him for the last 2000 years, with hundreds of thousands of Jews dying because they refuse to allow others to insert their beliefs into Judaism. Their is no Orthodox Jew who believes in Jesus- if you believe in Jesus you are a CHRISTIAN. You have put yourself outside of the Jewish community, you have separated yourself from Klal Yisrael. You are not Jewish, you are definitely not Orthodox! And just as you have separated yourself from the Jewish community in this world, you have separated yourself from the Jewish community in the world to come, losing the portion that would have been yours as part oft he Jewish people (assuming you were Jewish to start off with.)

        What you seem to fail to recognise is that your deceit and misrepresentation of your movement as “Orthodox Jews believing in Jesus the messiah” is as bad , if not worse than any of the tactics I will discuss and expose here- including this one! The fact that you keep trying to insist that despite your belief in Jesus and insertion of Christian scriptures into Judaism your movement remains Jewish, shows that you are as bad as any other missionaries. The fact that when somebody asks a question on Yahoo! Answers about learning Torah in Jerusalem you answer with a link to your site- without mentioning the fact that you teach it from a Christian perspective and include Jesus- show you engage in the same deception as any other missionaries in the “messianic jewish” movement. Maybe you will find someone gullible enough to believe your protestations somewhere- but on this blog they will be exposed for what they are the attempts of a Christian missionary movement to paint itself as jewish to deceive people into joining it!

      • “It was recorded that way to create hatred of the Jews and to try and exonerate the Romans of responsibility.”

        Absurd. That would be counter productive for a Jewish writer to say such and imply such, for then he’d be implicating himself. But then again, we could speculate at motives all day long and not get anywhere.

        “After all, you can’t tell the Roman’s they are responsible for killing the deity you want them to worship!”

        um, strike the deity part, but I get your point, but again, its counter intuitive, since the first disciples for a while were nothing but Jews. Seems hardly logical to make a tirade against Jews when Jews are your audience. So then it must be that your belief about their intention in writing such, is seriously and totally wrong.

        “The Christian scriptures spend so much time attacking the Pharisees for sticking to the letter if the law- yet suddenly, when convenient, they just ignore the law!”

        Yet it is written in Acts “believers from the sect of the Pharisees…” and “many believers of the Jews who are zealous for the Law” shows clearly that your understanding of what is being attacked is clearly off base. And no where is the Torah ignored.

        “The simple reality that history does not support the narrative in the Christian scriptures.”

        Neither does history contradict it.

        “the simple reality is that no trial was conducted by the Sanhedrin in such a fashion.”

        but certainly that one.

        “The Christian scriptures paint a picture of him completely at odds with the historical record. you might be comfortable with the Christian scriptures slandering the Sanhedrin and the great sages alive at the time. Jews will reject it for the hate mongering it is!”

        You see hate mongering for all Jews, I see something entirely different. Entirely and totally different. I see instead that most wicked and depraved generation for what it was, its lashon hara being responsible for the destruction of the 2nd Temple, its rampant murder in the streets, Judaism’s lowest point. That was the lowest point in our history as Jews, and I am appalled you would have us think otherwise. It was precisely at that point we needed messiah most, and precisely why he came riding on a donkey. It’s precisely why HaShem carried out his prophecy to destroy the 2nd Temple … in THAT generation. Baruch HaShem no generation has ever fallen that low again, and never will. May HaShem bring King Messiah to rebuild the Temple soon, and in our days.

        “As for you trying to claim you stand for the “Orthodox jewish community that believes in Jesus the messiah”- sorry, no such entity exists!”

        uh, yes they do.

        “the Sanhedrin and Jewish authorities rejected him…2000 years ago.”

        You know, this is funny. Sad actually. WHAT SANHEDRIN and WHAT RULING? Certainly you’re not referring to the one recorded in the gospels, for then you’d be contradicting yourself that it ever took place. Care to elaborate?

        “The Rabbis and Jewish people have rejected Jesus and the books written about him for the last 2000 years, with hundreds of thousands of Jews dying because they refuse to allow others to insert their beliefs into Judaism.”

        It’s a lot we both share. Except MJs tend to find themselves persecuted by both Jewish and Christian camps, so what’s your point? Does persecution make a truth any more valid? If so we can certainly compare and see which group is more persecuted… you or us.

        “You are not Jewish, you are definitely not Orthodox!”

        We are too Jewish, and we are too Orthodox! Some are even chassid!

        “What you seem to fail to recognise is that your deceit and misrepresentation of your movement as “Orthodox Jews believing in Jesus the messiah” is as bad , if not worse than any of the tactics I will discuss and expose here- including this one!”

        The deceit is you claiming to define us. Let me repeat that. The deceit that is happening here, is YOU defining us, when above you said that a group has the right to decide who is and is not part of it. Since you clearly claim you are not messianic, then you can’t define us, according to your logic. And yet here you are insisting on doing so. You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

        “The fact that you keep trying to insist that despite your belief in Jesus and insertion of Christian scriptures into Judaism your movement remains Jewish, shows that you are as bad as any other missionaries.”

        Is being true to oneself, as one believes, somehow now a “bad” thing? It’s statements like yours the foster hate, and anti-semitism, and worse, persecution against people like us. Do you deny this? That is why I’m here. To confront these lies about us and what we do, and who we are, and what we believe – as Jews – as Torah observant, one-G-d loving, non idol worshipping, orthodox leaning, and halachically observant orthodox Jews!

        “The fact that when somebody asks a question on Yahoo! Answers about learning Torah in Jerusalem you answer with a link to your site- without mentioning the fact that you teach it from a Christian perspective and include Jesus- show you engage in the same deception as any other missionaries in the “messianic jewish” movement.”

        What makes you think we are required to place a “warning label” on our answers when answering a gentile’s question as to where he can learn Torah? The Nazis did something similar when it came to marking Jews in Germany. Now you want us to mark ourselves in the same way for the same purposes?

        “Maybe you will find someone gullible enough to believe your protestations somewhere- but on this blog they will be exposed for what they are the attempts of a Christian missionary movement to paint itself as jewish to deceive people into joining it!”

        We’re standing up for who we are. That this runs counter to your deeply held but ignorant beliefs, is totally not our fault. That we exist, seems to be a “missionary” problem in your mind. Perhaps you’d like to tell Jesus to his face that he too, isn’t Jewish.

        Shalom.

      • Absurd. That would be counter productive for a Jewish writer to say such and imply such, for then he’d be implicating himself. But then again, we could speculate at motives all day long and not get anywhere.

        it would only be counter productive if they were Jewish or intending to remain in the Jewish community. The first of those is questionable, the second of those is a given fact that they had no intention of remaining in the Jewish community. By the time of the council of Nicea and the choosing of which versions and beliefs would be the acceptable ones, the Christians had been kicked out of, and no longer part of, the Jewish community for close to 200 years. They had everything to gain by villifying the Jews to exonerate the Romans and nothing to lose.

        Neither does history contradict it.

        On the contrary- the fact that the image of Pilates from the historical record is so different to the gospel version shows the inaccuracy of the gospels. As far as the Jews are concerned, the slander , villification and complete falsity of the gospel account proves its inaccuracy. Anachronisms like calling Jesus “Rabbi” in the gospels, when no such title existed until after the destruction of the Second temple shows the authorship and/or heavy editing of the gospels to conform to a specific view point well after his death. Feel free to believe what you like- but the Christian scriptures are not accurate in their depiction of Jews, Jewish beliefs, Jewish life at the times or the Jew’s relationship with the Romans. As a Christian I expect you to defend your gospels regardless of how they villify and lie about Jews. As a Jew, I don’t have to accept them and will continue to point out the inherent anti-Semitism within many passages in the gospels! And of course, to try and justify the hate mongering of your gospels, you use the same kind of vile language and slander. Ah well, I guess you have learnt well from YOUR religious scriptures which have nothing to do with Judaism!

        Its hilarious how you try to claim I am deceitful for exposing your little cult’s game of trying to claim to be Orthodox Jews LOL Heh, what, you don’t like having your lies exposed? I am sure you can provide a link to a statement, story, article, book, anything by a recognised Orthodox Jewish movement that accepts ‘messianic jews” as Jewish and not as a Christian sect? Heh, lets see, I am likely to get a quote that a Jew who converts to another religion- in other words a recognition that a Jew who converts will be punished with Kares as they will always be judged as a Jew. what the statement does not imply is that the religion they converted to has any validity! Bottom line- Orthodox Judaism rejects the “messianic jewish” sect as being nothing more than yet another Christian sect, and one using deceit, lies and misrepresentation as part of its attempts to convert Jews. I do not define who is a part of “messianic judaism”- I define who is a Jew according to what Judaism says- there is no deceit in that except in the eyes of a Christian missionary sect unhappy at having its lies and deceit exposed.

        What makes you think we are required to place a “warning label” on our answers when answering a gentile’s question as to where he can learn Torah? The Nazis did something similar when it came to marking Jews in Germany. Now you want us to mark ourselves in the same way for the same purposes?

        I suppose this was inevitable, the disgusting habit that “messianic jews” have of trying to claim that Jews trying to keep Judaism Jewish and not just another sect of Christianity are behaving like Nazi’s! Inevitable, since only by trying to appear the victim rather than what you ar ein reality, members of a missionary group using lies, deceit and misrepresentation to convert Jews, can you garner sympathy! A disgusting, low and revolting tactic showing how “messianic jews” not only have zero respect for Jews and Judaism, but are willing to abuse and tarnish the memory of the righteous dead of the holocaust to try and further their missionary aims! Shame on you, Israel, for this disgusting tactic!

        And yes, when somebody asks about organisations teaching “Torah/Judaism”- it is dishonest and deceitful to promote an organisation teaching Christianity without mentioning that detail! The person is asking about Torah and JUDAISM- you belong to a Christian sect, teaching a Christian version of the Torah- and claiming otherwise is deceitful and misrepresentation! Rant all you like about being victimised because the truth about your little charade was exposed- but since the question clearly was aimed at JEWISH sources, your failure to identify yourself as a ‘messianic jew” and your organisation being a “messianic jewish” one is deceitful and misleading- and exactly why it is necessary for people to expose your lies and deceit!

        As a side issue, I decided to have some fun with your twisting of the Torah to try and insert Jesus into the Torah! Its laughable to try and claim that he got smichah when Yehoshua received smichah form Moshe! He was born a mere 1500 years after the fact! LOL It smacks of the attempt in Islam to claim that all the figures in the Tanakh and Christian scriptures were actually Muslims. Sorry, your attempt to insert Jesus into places he is not will be treated with the contempt it deserves! So lets see how we can show how comparing Joshua (Yehoshu) to Jesus (Yeshua) leads to disproving this little attempot of yours to insert Christianity into Judaism. Yehoshua is NOT equal to Yeshua. How do they differ? Yehoshuah has a “hey” in it, Yeshua does not. Now, the “hey” is often added to a name to indicate the presence of Hashem- Yehoshua was a prophet, a leader, selected by G-d and thus deserving of the “hey” in his name. Yeshua, on the other hand, was not. G-d was absent from his life- he was not a prophet, he was not a leader of the nation, he was not selected by G-d- therefore he does not deserve the “hey” in his name! There we go- a good reason for you not to try and equate the two- Jesus just doesn’t stack up well when compared to actual figures from the Torah! LOL

  3. Sister Anna permalink

    The reason Jewish members of synagogues & temples are leaving is that they are not fulfilled.

    What words here are edifying? The only people drawn to what you write are ones seeking a confrontation, not peace.

    Anglican, Baptist, Catholic, Presbyterian, LDS, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and many other Christians witness about Jesus to the unsaved. Jews are just one of this group. They are not forced or manipulated – the converts come of their own free will and joyfully.

    Since it is impossible to stop the saving power of Jesus and his transforming gospel, your blog is of no use whatsoever. Even as you speak, hundreds have attended their last Shabbat service at Jewish Temples and Synagogues. They will convert to Christianity and nothing you can do will stop the power of the Holy Spirit.

    There is nothing compelling about your snide remarks and unjustified attacks. It will only drive those away from Judaism faster. You are actually making the transformation from Judaism to Christianity easier on anyone reading your loveless words.

    Have your moment of glory. Enjoy the fanfare you may receive from a half dozen or so people who agree with your style of ridicule.

    For every person drawn to Judaism through this ridiculous blog, hundreds will be attracted to a loving Savior.

    Sister Anna

    • You’re right to a certain extent- though only partially. Why only partially? Simple- the vast majority of Jews that convert to Christianity have little to no Jewish education or connection. The vats majority are secular Jews for whom being Jewish has at best meant a couple of family means along with an identity that is frequently a hindrance. The number of Jews with a proper Jewish upbringing and education that convert is minute. So, for those who lack a Jewish education and ability to seek out proper Jewish answers- being surrounded by Christians in a majority Christian country means that they find the answers where it is most convenient, and along the way it doesn’t hurt that this also brings a lot of social acceptance and identification which previously they were rejected from.

      it is not because of any great power or truth in Christianity- but merely because it is the most convenient. it also doesn’t hurt Christianity’s cause that they have many very active missionary organisations that target Jews specifically- at last count it was around 1000 different organisations worldwide that target Jews specifically, and many thousands more that target a wider audience including Jews. The answer is not for Jews to ignore the aggressive missionary tactics of Christians or the lack of education in many marginally affiliated Jews, but for Jews to actively educate and assist those who are vulnerable to missionary tactics by educating them and making certain they gain the necessary information to protect themselves from the aggressive tactics of the missionaries! This blog, the other blogs and websites like it, are just part of that. What I do on Yahoo! Answers is just part of that. The fact that one night when i had stayed up to watch a cricket game I ended up having a seven hour IM conversation with a “messianic jew” who had thought to try and convert me, but ended up contacting me a few days later to tell me that he had started having lessons with his local Orthodox Rabbi and had left his “messianic jewish” community is just part of it (sadly that is not always the case- but if this blog keeps even one Jew out of “messianic judaism” or gets even one Jew already entrapped in “messianic judaism” to leave and return to authentic Judaism, it will be enough.) Every little bit counts- when it is as easy to find information about authentic Judaism and how to counter the missionaries as is is to find the missionaries and their twisted versions of Judaism, a big step will have een taken- after all, the number of Jews vs. the number of missionaries has us at a massive disadvantage- all we have to our advantage is the fact that the truth of Judaism is plainly seen to those not already invested in the lies of the missionaries

    • Dovid permalink

      When I see comments like this from missionaries trying to justify their attacks on Judaism I bless haShem for people like Marc that use sites like these to educate and innoculate the vulnerable members of the community against missionaries! sister anna is clearly ignorant with zero knowledge of Judaism if she thinks there is something lacking in it! The only thing lacking in Judaism is an environment free of the pollution of missionaries and the modern world which draws those without sufficient education away and acts as a deterrent to them learning about their own religion but promoting other philosophies, ideas and religions! The ghetto’s and shtiebels may have been places of oppression, but they protected against the pollution of the worlds outside and allowed Jews to be Jews without interference

      • Dovid, while I agree with some points, I disagree with others. I think that romantacising the shtiebels and ghettoes of the past is a dangerous thing to do. Yes, Jewish thought, philosophy and religious writings flourished- but so did anti-Semitism, culminating in pogroms. blood libels, expulsions and a creation of a legacy of hatred that is still with us today. Yes, Jews remained Jews by and large, but at what cost? How many dead? How many tortured? How many forcefully converted- then killed by the inquisition because they had only pretended to convert and continued to be Jewish in private? How many of those conversos managed to carry their Judaism through the generations, passing it onto their children? Extremely few- though it has become a phenomenon of the modern era that the descendants of conversos are seeking out their Jewish roots and some converting to Judaism!

        And the ghettos and shtiebelach led to attitudes like that of Sister Anna- Jews were isolated form the mainstream for so long that the bulk of people have no idea what Jews actually believe (how often have you heard the statement “Judaism is just Christianity without Jesus”?) How could a non-Jew know of the depth, breadth, beauty and connection with G-d that Judaism creates, when they have never learnt? We see so many unaffiliated Jews who don’t know what Judaism offers and thus being the prey for the Sister Annas of this world- and if we are not succeeding in educating those on the fringes of our own community- how can we expect those outside of the community to know any better?

    • Sister Anna,

      I am a Jew, who follows Jesus, and I still attend an orthodox synagogue. I don’t plan on having a “last Shabbat” any time soon, and neither do I believe the Master (Jesus) would either. Even Paul, after writing Galatians went to go and offer sacrifices in the temple for his nazarite vow, not only for himself but to also pay for several others to do the same. If Paul still went to the Temple, then as a Christian who I hope claims to also follow Paul, then go and do what Paul says when he says “imitate me even as I imitate Christ” – and thus go learn and do Torah of which Jesus said “I came to fulfill” ie “do”.

      • Dovid permalink

        What a scary reply! Do they know you are an apikoros and try to lead Jews to worship Jesus? or do you lie, hide your true beliefs and then accept community honours and thus prevent those you are praying with form gaining the full benefit of their own prayers by allowing yourself, an apikoros, to represent them?

        I’d rather see 100 honest missionaries than one deceptive missionary like yourself!

      • Dovid, I do not worship Jesus. He is only an agent of HaShem who does the work of HaShem. We can’t pray to him anymore than we can pray to Moses, so please cease your unfounded and emotional rants towards me or anyone like me. The orthodox Jewish community I am a part of knows that I believe Jesus is the Messiah, but they also know I am not an idol worshiper. I am accepted into a minyan like any other Jew, and no Jew’s prayers are hindered or degraded by such since we all recite from the same siddur – and I add nothing to it, nor is there a need to do so. Oy vey.

    • Furthermore Sister Anna, by saying that one who follows Jesus would stop keeping Shabbat, you make Jesus out to be a false prophet. I encourage you to read Gen-Deut first before making such statements about Jesus.

  4. private s permalink

    My cousin recommended this blog and she was totally right keep up the fantastic work!

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